Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

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Thibix Magnus
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Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:51 pm

TL;DR

Eldar could use some missing, thematic, sexy speed buff to vehicles in T3, that would be so costly that it would only be seen in casual 3v3 and not affect the mod's priority on 1v1.

Suggestion :

give an extremely costly T3 upgrade to falcon and fire prism, giving them the forward speed and lateral skimming of Last Stand or first game campaign fire prisms. I find these parameters give the vehicles a really beautiful jagger move that does justice to the Eldar theme, similarly to DoW3 and it’s a shame such already implemented potential is wasted in multiplayer.

By all means, make it stupidly expensive, more than an avatar. Even worse, the speed buff is only forward so you can’t use it to pull back when under attack, unless you take the risk of exposing your delicate 500 hp vehicle rear.

So you will never make such a risky investment in 1v1 and it will at the beginning only be experimented for fun in casual uncompetitive 3v3 when floating late game. Then if the community loves it and sees it opens some potential new late-game play-style - beyond piling on plasma cannons fire power - based on speed and lightning strikes; only then, it can be tweaked more seriously.

Aaand you can bait sorely needed new players into the mod with some new cool replays :twisted:

My MAIN gripe with Eldar implementation in DoW2 multiplayer is that their vehicles are the slowest in the game. You can't pull a fast attack with combined arms, which makes the Eldar maybe balanced but one of the least immersive factions to my taste. I would really love to see that finally fixed, and hopefully more daring, skilled maneuvers can be seen in late 3v3.

Why :

I have the very biased impression that Eldar have been slowly losing fun in 3v3 late game. A team that has trained together and voice-talk to each other could certainly pull some yet unseen things, but the overall impression is that the very dominant position that they had at the very beginning of DoW2, when they suffered a lot in T2 but had the scariest toys if they made it to T3… is gone, and it’s probably a good thing. Two heroes got seer council which is HUGE. But the nerf to D-cannons (quite sad loss on the visual side I might add), to the commander abilities like phase shift (deserved), to the autarch, to falcons’ shield (edit: to gates cost and build time) and importantly to the Eldritch Storm, seem to compensate that more than a bit.

While all other factions got heavy hitters over time (fortunately !) and for example it was progressively accepted that SM were supposed to snowball and dominate if left unchecked (which is fine mind you, but it is a human design decision), Eldar got a lot of fantastic T2 improvements and of love, certainly from a 1v1 perspective. And I don’t doubt that 1v1 T3 is quite balanced because map control is so much more important.

The paradox is that balance is always made for 1v1 but I feel many perceptions and collective outrages sometimes materialize in more often played 3v3. I felt for example that D-canons were nerfed from a 3v3 perspective, while overly dominant 3v3 units like plasma-cannon or Land Raider Redeemer did not, but I might be quite wrong (just stating an impression, please don't cherry pick on that you eldar haters <3 ).

The question is, would it be acceptable to try some new things in late game 3v3, that would not be of use in 1v1 ? Not for the sake of buffing eldar T3, but diversifying its play style ?

TL;DR again

Eldar could use some missing, thematic, sexy speed buff to vehicles in T3, that would be so costly that it would only be seen in casual 3v3 and not affect the mod's priority on 1v1.

What do you think ?
Last edited by Thibix Magnus on Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Rostam » Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:29 pm

This article is so long sorry but could u ask the question in 1 sentence in orky language :)
i only read what do u think ^__^
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:35 pm

Rostam wrote:This article is so long sorry but could u ask the question in 1 sentence in orky language :)
i only read what do u think ^__^


I did on the first sentence but I guess most people start at the end ^^

Just reworked dat. Sorry for the long post but in the past, if you didn't use a LOT of precautions these sorts of threads were usually answered with "eldar already OP this is competitive 1v1 gtfo n00b" :)
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Rostam » Mon 15 Jan, 2018 11:07 pm

well yes this is true in late team games eldar kinda struggle . seer councel is a very good asset, since tanks are so squishy . the common mistake among the eldar players i think is banking the red too much for eldrich strom. the other globals are really good . fleet of foot, distort field (can use it for offense,defense,retreat saves),units callings,crack shot,... are really good . like distort field seer councel with fleet of foot in t3 with wl support and warp throw are really dangerous
actually a falcon is a good vehichle to have even in T3 since it becomes so tanky (tankier than FP) if eldar preserve it till t3
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby egewithin » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 11:14 am

It is okay to write long as long as it is not empty.

Speed buff won't solve anything for Eldar late game. Prisims need their speed when they are backing off, not moving forward. Speed buff would only make it harder to control like Scouts for early SM game. If there will be a buff, it should work for any directions.

Eldar late game problem is about durability. It is very hard for Eldar to move against a well defended durable position, they need tricks, lots of tricks. This is why Eldar players are generally smarter than GK players. Ooooowwwwww !!!

It is also weird that Prisims are slower than Predators, but that is a balance thing I think.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 12:48 pm

egewithin wrote:It is okay to write long as long as it is not empty.

Speed buff won't solve anything for Eldar late game. Prisims need their speed when they are backing off, not moving forward. Speed buff would only make it harder to control like Scouts for early SM game. If there will be a buff, it should work for any directions.

Eldar late game problem is about durability. It is very hard for Eldar to move against a well defended durable position, they need tricks, lots of tricks. This is why Eldar players are generally smarter than GK players. Ooooowwwwww !!!

It is also weird that Prisims are slower than Predators, but that is a balance thing I think.


My main problem is that I can't say anything about 1v1 balance, that's why I tried to find something that wouldn't affect it... about taking entrenched positions, I think it can still be worked around in team games with some good pivoting over VPs, but not being able to use vehicles for that is limiting.

The forward speed buff I propose is a big one, the same as in last stand or DoW2 campaign. Of course if we start as suggested, with a price that would make it unviable in competitive games, I'm fine with applying the buff to all directions, but later on if the community thinks it is a deserved play style addition then having it only forward could be a good compromise to start with.

I think such a method (start with a stupidly huge price) is a way to make this change very quickly without any balance concern. I often found it a bit sad that the visual immersion of a faction was totally ignored for the sake of competitiveness when I'm sure you can have both. Again, losing the visual effect of the d-cannon was sad in that respect. While there are still players I just hope to see graceful eldar vehicles instead of the totally lazy and non-immersive solution that relic started with and we got used to ^^
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby crog » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 1:11 pm

I agree with you elite mod nerfed eldars t3 to the extend that it is not worth going t3 anymore ("mahror" for instance, a good eldar player almost never does it).

Prism can get one shoted on rear armor with their 500 hp they have less than an upgraded razorback and are slower than a tank ???
I know the range is great, but thats not worth 450req 135power if a mek can one shoot it, not talking about a leman rus or predator.
The eldrich (which was eldars t3 strength) is nerfed to be useless , it is so easily dodged and it does half of the dmg it did earlier, cant finish a hurted sm squat anymore.
Seers are ok, but very fragile for a t3 unit.

I think Prism needs a shield upgrade and a speed buff (not much but on the same lvl of a tank )
The nuke is ridiculous now(most people agree on this), should also get fixed.
SC could get a slight hp buff..
That is what I think.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:22 pm

I don't understand that people think Eldar T3 is bad in teamgames. Eldar T3 is amazing in teamgames.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby TharxGamma » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:44 pm

Honestly I think that would break Eldar :( But I do hate them pointy ear bastards
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:29 pm

Dark Riku wrote:I don't understand that people think Eldar T3 is bad in teamgames. Eldar T3 is amazing in teamgames.


TharxGamma wrote:Honestly I think that would break Eldar :( But I do hate them pointy ear bastards


Hi! Ok, please please please... I specifically propose, repeatedly, a stupidly high price to avoid this sort of concern :)

My point was really more about fun and immersion, rather than balance. The question - that was certainly diluted by my too long post - is:

How to have lore friendly eldar vehicles that wouldn't break the game ? Why stick to the initial Relic design when we otherwise create entire new factions and units ?

I am specifically saying, make the upgrade as expensive as you want, really. 1500 / 300 for what I care. But seriously, if you find DoW3 bouncing space marines ridiculous (I'm sure you do), come on, you must understand that a DoW game that hasn't been able to propose Eldar vehicles that don't totally break immersion with slower-than-WWII-tech-speed is just a shame. Then the community has got used to it, it's a social construct. But just take a step back for a moment, what if tactical space marines felt squishy but it was accepted for the sake of balance ? Or Orks had a super defensive play-style, why change that if it's balanced ? Just look at 2 or 3 eldar tanks under Mek speed buff, suddenly the art style and in-game behaviour start to make sense together.

And then the modders have done an absolutely amazing job with little reward for the amount of work (just to make it clear it's really not a complaint against the mod, just a genuine suggestion !!), but the current amount of players should make us realize that balance is not everything even if your purpose as a mod is competition. A bit of novelty can be good, feel free to think about other races too. Let's imagine a short promotional video for vanilla players, showing thematic play styles including a hit and run with fire prisms. The fact that this last sentence sounds so weird in this game is telling...

As of balance, personally I don't think eldar are bad in team games, I just think they lack options and thematic style in the late game.

But anyway, why care if its price is high enough to be only a luxury purchase in casual 3v3s ? Top players would invest 1500/300 in anything before a 500 hp vehicle that pops if frowned upon. It only requires a copy paste of speed parameters from the Last Stand, not even testing at the beginning if the price is high enough.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby boss » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:05 pm

So let me get this straight you want eldar vehicle to have more speed cos of shit late game for eldar in 3v3s? THIBIX MAGNUS

But then going t3 is worthless says Crog hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm idk what to think to any of this :o
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:31 pm

boss wrote:So let me get this straight you want eldar vehicle to have more speed cos of shit late game for eldar in 3v3s? THIBIX MAGNUS

But then going t3 is worthless says Crog hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm idk what to think to any of this :o


I would love Eldar vehicles to have more speed, period :)

Because it's part of the basic 40k context in which this game is set. First you set in stone the basics (space marines are few and tanky, eldar vehicles are fast) then you find balance around that.

If it's too complicated to balance, you make it too expensive to be competitive, but at least it exists in fun games. So players test it, and then, if every one says "omg it feels super immersive, anti-grav tech is actually useful compared to 20th century tracks, I feel like playing Eldar, what have we done all these years", only then, maybe, possibly, start thinking about what would be a reasonable price to see that in competitive games.

As a side remark, I add that I find the Eldar lacking in late 3v3, they have been losing T3 steam over the years and the spread increased with other goodies like LRR, and they could benefit from increased fast options come T3, but it's only a perception and I'm not qualified to say what's needed or not. And maybe there is some unexplored potential for super pro teams with speakers who act like one soul (a bit hard to get there with so few players) But this is not the main point :)
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 10:05 pm

Yeah and space marines are super fast and with inhuman reflexes, 6.5 speed tacts when?
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby boss » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 12:59 am

Yea I don't see why eldar vehicles need more speed falcon already have speed 7 and the best firepower out of all t2 stuff.

Fire prism are arty tanks they should not have more speed, however they do die very fast I can get be hide the idea of giving it a shield upgrade like the falcon but it will have to be weaker.

Seers are fine idk why they need more hp.

Eldar nuke no fucking way it will get buff to bullshit for a long time
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Lolgar » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 1:22 am

I dont see a need for a speed buff, its just a durability issue. Eldar struggle to break lines of tanky races in 3v3s once they're dug in. I like the idea of a weaker version of the falcon shield for prisms though. Not much else can be done to help them otherwise. Eldar have to seal the deal earlier in the game or face the steel snowballs that many other races can become. Although I hate getting out gunned in T3 as an eldar player, a good chunk of the problem they have in T3 is not using their abilities and globals properly and thats the players' faults not the game set up. The shield though for prisms seems like an easy aid to the issue though.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 9:01 am

Image

This thing is your best friend against enemy lines. Eldar firepower at long range trumps all other races. Play them like Eldar and not IG. Place gates for flanks and attack from both sides. I agree with Boss and Riku. Their vehicles need neither buffs nor is Eldar T3 bad in comparison to other factions.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 4:30 pm

Sisters and Brothers, after all these years, your unwavering commitment to this game's Balance against countless hordes of over-enthusiastic newbies is remarkable but you're not answering my post :) I guess it's my mistake, I wasn't precise enough but I did try a follow up, I'll maybe try again to rephrase it later (english is not my native tongue either).

I should have never (NEVER !) mixed a possible secondary benefit (for play-style diversification) with my main question, but I never intended this thread to be about Eldar needing anything on the balance side.

Just like raptors and phobos and neurothrope and whirlwinds and all the freakin' Ordo Malleus were not needed for the sake of balance. There are just part of a universe we love and want to see fleshed out. You grumpy ol' vets <3
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby TharxGamma » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 4:46 pm

Sorry If I get this wrong but here is my take :) And also never apologize for bad English, the fact you know 2 langues is impressive and I know how hard it is ;D

So you think that Eldar need their tanks to have a speed boost in late game so they can have a fast attack option and more lore friendly(?) But also make it so expensive that only for floating opportunity in 3v3. But also you feel that they now fall off hard in t3 compared to the other factions.

While I kind of agree with the falling off part as when I play them I find it hard to keep up, this is purely because I can't play Eldar :D The tanks though are more support vehicles not the up in your face type. The Fire Prism has amazing range and 2 different shots so if micro'd properly it's dam tough to take down and the Falcon is again more a reinforcing point with light anti tank. Again this is my take on it and to add something so expensive seems a little redundant.

I presume this is what you meant? But this is my take on it and I probably made 0 sense here :lol:
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby KrucY » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 4:50 pm

Maybe instead speed buff we can give a jump ability like in DoW I? (ofc available as upgrade)

http://warhammer-game.narod.ru/wiki/Fire_Prism.html
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 5:36 pm

TharxGamma wrote:Sorry If I get this wrong but here is my take :) And also never apologize for bad English, the fact you know 2 langues is impressive and I know how hard it is ;D

So you think that Eldar need their tanks to have a speed boost in late game so they can have a fast attack option and more lore friendly(?) But also make it so expensive that only for floating opportunity in 3v3. But also you feel that they now fall off hard in t3 compared to the other factions.

While I kind of agree with the falling off part as when I play them I find it hard to keep up, this is purely because I can't play Eldar :D The tanks though are more support vehicles not the up in your face type. The Fire Prism has amazing range and 2 different shots so if micro'd properly it's dam tough to take down and the Falcon is again more a reinforcing point with light anti tank. Again this is my take on it and to add something so expensive seems a little redundant.

I presume this is what you meant? But this is my take on it and I probably made 0 sense here :lol:


Yes that's what I meant :) but I did took a clumsy approach, because there is

1) the main point about faction design, immersion, more varied and thematic late game, and with a crazy price start so it can be tested asap without ringing all the balance alarms (that failed);

and 2) a side note, my fuzzy impression that Eldar struggle in late 3v3 but, because I know I'm a mid-tier and occasional player (and slightly eldar biased), I don't feel I can make a legitimate case of it. I also imagine a ton of fantastic moves that could be made by a hive minded eldar team and that I've yet never seen.

The issue is that in my mind, 1) doesn't rely on 2) ...

KrucY wrote:Maybe instead speed buff we can give a jump ability like in DoW I? (ofc available as upgrade)

http://warhammer-game.narod.ru/wiki/Fire_Prism.html


there is also that, and Caeltos tried this suggestion a long time ago. However it would require much more work to the modders instead of just copy pasting existing speed parameters, so if the community is skeptic it's maybe not the best ...
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 9:57 pm

The problem I have with this suggestion is a practical one.
Why would the modders spend time on this when there are other more useful things they can do?
I know you say immersion and fluff could attract more people. I personally just don't see that working and don't think it's worth the time investment.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 10:20 pm

Dark Riku wrote:The problem I have with this suggestion is a practical one.
Why would the modders spend time on this when there are other more useful things they can do?
I know you say immersion and fluff could attract more people. I personally just don't see that working and don't think it's worth the time investment.


That would be understandable. I wondered if just copying existing parameters (e.g last stand fire prism) would take a few minutes, but I have no idea about the (free) work it requires to add an upgrade slot, and indeed there are more pressing issues. If what takes time however is the testing, that's where the huge upgrade cost comes into play, so the initial testing would be done in casual games instead of taking the time of modders. That "externalization" could be done to any other faction. I know it's quite unorthodox, maybe there are other issues as of why it's not a good way.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 2:42 am

The game's design doesn't ultimately hinge on the lore. If it did, a single tac marine squad would beat a 100 pop maxed out IG army.

Lore should inform the design of the races when possible (I don't want Ogryn snipers), but balance is what matters most - and adding a fast T3 vehicle to the eldar would make them too powerful (Eldar T3 is already amazing).
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Nurland » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 11:00 pm

Eldar T3 isn't the best T3 in 3v3s... It isn't the worst either though. It is very potent but relies gimmicks more than other T3.

By gimmicks I mean utilizing hero and squad abilities more than most other factions need to but they do have more potential gain than other factions by doing so.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Atlas » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 11:15 pm

Just to make something clear, I don't think we should shut down "fun" ideas and such. As long as it's something workable, I'm at the least willing to hear it out and, from what I can tell, so is the general community.

While I can sometimes understand the bittervet sentiment, I've seen cases where a guy you might consider at the "bittervet" stage of player development posts some really radical stuff.

I'm open to giving Eldar vehicles a look. I don't see why, if we can make them a bit more fun and lore friendly, we shouldn't explore it.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Rostam » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 11:31 pm

have u seen fire prisms in dow1?
they are like as tough as leman russ and killiness of a pred and disruption of the looted tank with the range of the prism itself :)
what ever u do dont do that please :D
but change on prisms seems fun, mb more tanky and less range or sth like that idk, i dont play eldar but yea good idea atlas

PS: Eldar in dow1 have jumping terminators (warpjump) with a melta bomb . warp spiders :)
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Antandron » Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:59 pm

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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 21 Jan, 2018 3:48 pm

Do People forget that Eldar are meant to be fragile and thus micro-intensive? I suggest you look up Indrids earlier casts when actuall Eldar mains were still active. See what they can accomplish with good strategical positioning and micro. In their Hands Fire Prisms become nearly untouchable. It has insane range and good firing modes. Why should that vehicle recieve a shield on top of that? With all due respect but you guys are playing Eldar wrong if you want them to be durable like Space Marines. Eldar are simply not made for stationary digging in and holding a position. Move around, kite, flank, disrupt, buff, disable...all at the same time. THAT is the Eldar way.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Antandron » Sun 21 Jan, 2018 6:36 pm

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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Sun 21 Jan, 2018 6:45 pm

Antandron wrote:The Fire Prism is slower than a Predator and has the HP of a Chimera. I also suspect that the AV potential is not great:

Prism Cannon Focused : 29dps range 65
Pred Lascannon: 55dps range 44
Carnifex Venom Cannon: 50dps range 55

One method of discovering which units are OP and which UP is a quiz.

Q: You are in T3 with 600/150, what do you want to buy?
a. Leman Russ
b. SM or Chaos Predator
c. Looted Tank.
d. Fire Prism

I am not saying Fire Prism is broken, just that it is a bit lame. Crippled HP, not fast and not great AV. Just long range disruption of Infantry blobs, Nobz in particular.


Although, you don't pay for the fire prism's extreme provess, or its greater damage/range. You pay for its versatility. The fact that it can change between two different firering modes is a large reason for its great price and its crippled stats. If the predetor could do a similar thing, changing between lascannon and autocannon freely for exmaple, it would also be hugely expensive.

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