Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Gorbles
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Thu 04 May, 2017 1:24 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
Gorbles wrote:Wait, so journalistic articles are trustworthy, now?

Sorry, I keep getting told conflicting things on that (and I recognise it's a personal thing, what outlets to trust, and so on). Either all the professional reviews are paid-for and overhyped, or the professional reviews mention the phrase "MOBA" and therefore that makes the game one.

Which is it?


It's both? I mean I know it's hard for you to understand but if you give a RTS high scores while praising the moba elements which is what every "professional" review site did, they are probably being paid to give it nothing less than an 8.

I'm talking about their inherent trustworthiness. No need for petty insults, I'm being honest.

If you can't trust them to accurate give a score that represents the product, how can you trust them to accurately label the game's genre?
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Toilailee » Thu 04 May, 2017 1:41 pm

Nurland wrote:Vanilla DoW2 had horrible balance much like DoW3. It is kinda to be expected early on with games.


From what little experience I have with dow3 so far I really don't think there's a comparison to be made here. Pre TIOW dow2 balance was plain hilarious and dow3 has nothing close to the SM vs tyranids match up from that age.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Haidran » Thu 04 May, 2017 3:39 pm

Toilailee wrote:
Nurland wrote:Vanilla DoW2 had horrible balance much like DoW3. It is kinda to be expected early on with games.


From what little experience I have with dow3 so far I really don't think there's a comparison to be made here. Pre TIOW dow2 balance was plain hilarious and dow3 has nothing close to the SM vs tyranids match up from that age.


I would say it's actually decently balanced compared to other games at this stage in their lifecycle.
That is to say nothing of content or enjoyment.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby FuFuSchmeri » Thu 04 May, 2017 5:57 pm

Ok I recognize I need to make my point a little clearer so ppl can understand it a bit better. Lets try it with a table shall we?

[The extension jpg has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]



I leaft out the powerfull heros because I don't think they are. Everything in DoW III is a bit more over the top. A chopa toss of a T2 unit like Nobs can gib a devastator squard with full health. A t1 unit like sluggas can stun an imperial knight with it's charge. Seeing as all units are more powerfull if used right, the heros need to be even more powerfull not to be just another lame unit.
Even in DoW II and WC III heros could win alone against half an army. Ever seen a FC with Hammer against a tyranid meele blob?

So my point was that DoW II (the game we all love) is just as much of a MOBA as DoW III is, jet most of you hate DoW III for beeing too much of a MOBA. That makes no sense to me.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Psycho » Thu 04 May, 2017 6:17 pm

Did you seriously make a table...?
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby UlyssesASL » Thu 04 May, 2017 6:50 pm

FuFuSchmeri wrote:Ok I recognize I need to make my point a little clearer so ppl can understand it a bit better. Lets try it with a table shall we?

MOBA.JPG




Wait, why does DOW3 not have "hitting and dodging skill shots" ticked? So far many abilities I've seen (from Indrid's ESL videos) are pretty much skill shots, both for units and heroes. Even more so for heroes since they would often have more abilities than normal units

And I would argue some standards are less helpful in "define MOBA closeness". For example, when you killed enemy heroes in the case that give you resource advantages, and if at the same time that specific dead hero was also a powerful one, doesn't at the same time allow you to push with less concern about enemy forces? And shouldn't that transfer to time advantages?

Also the argument of "bush = MOBA" thing. What if I replace a bush with a small hill of high ground? You cannot see what's on that high ground unless you go in there, because of height, and vertical terrain vision restriction is quite common now in RTS. Does it make bushes less MOBA? More? Or the standard of comparison is not ideal to start with?

Don't get me wrong, it's amazing that you actually make a comparison table. It just worries me that many articles and review out there would just shout "having a bush is toooooooo MOBA" "You have LANES! That's toooo MOBA!" without actually considering if the standards are rigged in the first place
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby boss » Thu 04 May, 2017 7:24 pm

dow2 hero's have an impart yes but not instant wiping squads at the start of the fucking game which most if not all of the dow3 hero's/units have, in dow2 you have to build them up to how you want them to perform you put cost into them and loosing them is a kick in the balls you give xp and all the cost of the wargears you put into them in until you rebuy them, dow 3 you don't lose anything than other than a bit of time you don't lose cost or xp. plus most skills don't 1 shot units in dow2 other than nukes but dow3 nukes are just stupid anyway.

Also you don't to kill your oppent base to win you heard of vp? in 3 you have to waste about 20 min just to kill the power core boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz the game already over by them anyway and people just drop only troll stay behide to waste your time such a good game mode and only game mode btw unless you want to pay for the new one soon :)
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Thu 04 May, 2017 7:31 pm

Psycho wrote:Did you seriously make a table...?

Given how difficult the written arguments seem to be for people to accept, data visualisation is a common and indeed recommended way of disseminating information to the public.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby boss » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:09 pm

Gorb why don't you do us all a favour and piss of to your new forums your arguments make no sense and now you feel picture are the way to go cos were stupid piss of and suck up to relic as always.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:13 pm

Gorbles wrote:
Psycho wrote:Did you seriously make a table...?

Given how difficult the written arguments seem to be for people to accept, data visualisation is a common and indeed recommended way of disseminating information to the public.

Well the picture contains errors.

1. Hitting and dodging skillshots....
That is a VITAL part of DoW 2 and 3! To a degree even that it can decide the outcome of the entire match.

2. Turrets defending your base...
If the giant laser shooting structure can not be considered a defensive base structure I am not sure what can be.....

According to this (random) graph DoW 3 would score 7 instead of 5 points. There is literally no doubt at all that Relic incorporated multiple key MOBA elements into DoW3. They even selected the keyword "MOBA" for their steam page....So, there is that.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:38 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
Gorbles wrote:
Psycho wrote:Did you seriously make a table...?

Given how difficult the written arguments seem to be for people to accept, data visualisation is a common and indeed recommended way of disseminating information to the public.

Well the picture contains errors.

1. Hitting and dodging skillshots....
That is a VITAL part of DoW 2 and 3! To a degree even that it can decide the outcome of the entire match.

2. Turrets defending your base...
If the giant laser shooting structure can not be considered a defensive base structure I am not sure what can be.....

According to this (random) graph DoW 3 would score 7 instead of 5 points. There is literally no doubt at all that Relic incorporated multiple key MOBA elements into DoW3. They even selected the keyword "MOBA" for their steam page....So, there is that.

Let's compromise, then. I agree on the first point, raising the score to 6.

I will argue on the second point, because you didn't quote the impactful consequence of "base fights not occurring", when they absolutely do. So that's six for each game.

And certainly, even if you pushed it to a 7, you still have astoundingly-similar scores across the board for all three iterations of the franchise. They all have similar levels of what people arguably consider to be "MOBA" concepts. A genre that rose out of a classic RTS game, informed by RTS design patterns, and shaped by the limits of the WC3 game engine. Even LoL, which first changed the concept (and became the first major MOBA title), was designed by one of the original DotA developers (Pendragon). The RTS roots are clear and obvious, straight from WC3.

Relic may have incorporated MOBA "elements" into DoW III, but no more than they have a history of doing, especially with DoW II. That's the point. There's no point calling DoW III a MOBA unless you also call DoW II a MOBA. And, if you agree with the table, even some design aspects have their roots in vDoW.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby FuFuSchmeri » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:47 pm

The one with the skillshots not beeing in DoW III was obviously a misstake. Here is the updated one.

[The extension jpg has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]



Adeptus Noobus wrote:2. Turrets defending your base...
If the giant laser shooting structure can not be considered a defensive base structure I am not sure what can be.....


I took DoW III turrets out of the base-turrets category because they do not specifically defend your base. You can bypass them on many maps with jumptroops, skimmers or by makeing them attack a spare unit left behind. If you wish to go for the enemy base you can do so without getting the turets, but you will be unable to damage the powercore then. This is why they count as an obstacle and not a base turret to me. Arguably you could change that and get one single point of MOBA-score more for DoW III compared to DoW II.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:There is literally no doubt at all that Relic incorporated multiple key MOBA elements into DoW3.


Exactly! I never said DoW III didn't have MOBA elements. All I say is, that this should not bother us DoW II fans, because DoW II has just as many or almost as many MOBA elements and we sure love that.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Psycho » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:47 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:According to this (random) graph DoW 3 would score 7 instead of 5 points. There is literally no doubt at all that Relic incorporated multiple key MOBA elements into DoW3. They even selected the keyword "MOBA" for their steam page....So, there is that.

Let's not forget about this little thing before the game even came out
Image

Gorbles wrote:Let's compromise, then.

Are you seriously trying to make a compromise based on a guy resorting to hyperbole to help his argument that can be described as a "no u" to DoW2 after people called DoW3 MOBA?
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:59 pm

As much as I'm trying to compromise with someone who takes a single multiple-choice question out of a much larger form to frame the entire game as a MOBA, yes :)

The ability design is obviously reminiscent of MOBA titles more than it is classical RTS titles.

However, it's also reminiscent of DoW II. Strikingly similar, even.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 04 May, 2017 9:06 pm

Why are we even talking about the MOBA issue here when talking about why the reviews are less than stellar. In my opinion TotalBiscuit made some very compelling arguments as to why the game is percieved to be lacking in key areas, many arguments that were brought up here as well with which I agree (Keybindings, Campaign, emphasis on Hero, T1 being cannon-fodder late game, unit preservation, etc.)
It's a very good watch.



P.S: How in the world has Relic not yet figured out how to keep replay files even after making changes to the balance of the game? It is frustrating to say the least that all replay files are lost whenever the patch stuff which will happen a lot in the next months I assume....
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Psycho » Thu 04 May, 2017 9:07 pm

Gorbles wrote:As much as I'm trying to compromise with someone who takes a single multiple-choice question out of a much larger form to frame the entire game as a MOBA

Why do I keep seeing you pull this fallacy so often lately? Attempting to guess someone's intentions and taking that guess as fact to then argue against it? I was adding onto what Noobus said and you immediately jumped here saying I'm labeling the entire game as MOBA specifically because of that single question alone.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Andy Garcia » Fri 05 May, 2017 3:36 am

The game is not a moba, even with as much impact as Elites have on the game (something I abhor) the game is not a moba. It firmly remains a RTS game because base building, macromanaging and army micromanaging not only are there, but their interactions remain at the very least as important as managing a single unit (Hero)

Truth be told the elites throw a very very big wrench at what DoW III is trying to do in many areas and thats the biggest gripe I have with the game other than chaos not being around, but the game decidedly is not a MOBA and people insisting otherwise have to A) Actually play the game B) Reexamine what makes a moba taking into consideration the most sucessful examples in the market.

As for my actual 2 cents. since the moment I wrote this post until today Ive been examining the game through a fairly critical/analytical lense and to my personal opinion, the game can use a LOT of unit balancing, A LOT of tuning, at least the VP game mode back and chaos in some shape or form

The game is young and there is room to grow, I wish Relic would shed light on the direction they want to take the game so people can be put to rest with all their doubts.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:15 am

hardly any strategy in this game just blob and a move only stuff that require decent micro are workers and elites...............
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Fri 05 May, 2017 7:42 am

Psycho wrote:
Gorbles wrote:As much as I'm trying to compromise with someone who takes a single multiple-choice question out of a much larger form to frame the entire game as a MOBA

Why do I keep seeing you pull this fallacy so often lately? Attempting to guess someone's intentions and taking that guess as fact to then argue against it? I was adding onto what Noobus said and you immediately jumped here saying I'm labeling the entire game as MOBA specifically because of that single question alone.

It's not a fallacy when there's no other reason for you including such a question, while ignoring the rest of the survey that it was sourced from.

You're very quick to post something with plausible deniability, and cry fallacy when called on it. If I'm actually wrong, then say how I'm wrong and that you don't think the game is a MOBA.

If you think the game is a MOBA, or heavily derived from it, then my assertion with regards to your motives is correct. No? Let's have an honest conversation, for once. I'm not trying to trip you up, regardless of me disagreeing with you, there's nothing wrong with holding an opinion about the genre of the game.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 05 May, 2017 11:33 am

Geebus christ guys. Who the fuck cares what the game is labelled as? It clearly has RTS AND moba elements.
Lets just call it a rtmobsa. Mkay.

Why don't you all focus your time on the actual gameplay. And how good/bad that is. (mostly bad in my early opinion)
And on pretty much all other points TB talked about.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 05 May, 2017 1:47 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Geebus christ guys. Who the fuck cares what the game is labelled as? It clearly has RTS AND moba elements.
Lets just call it a rtmobsa. Mkay.

Why don't you all focus your time on the actual gameplay. And how good/bad that is. (mostly bad in my early opinion)
And on pretty much all other points TB talked about.

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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Zess1664 » Sat 06 May, 2017 12:24 pm

I just could not ignore this thread.
I apologize, for not very good knowledge of English, but I still try to express my opinion:

This game, in fact, Fallout 4 from the world of Dawn of War - the developers chasing the money and popularity in masses and have removed \simplyfied all those features for which people love the original series.
Despite the initial doubts about the quality of the product, I still wanted to take it, at least out of respect for the original.
However, dull and static slideshow in the spirit of "look, we can in symbolizm things" Instead of video, a poor campaign, controversial visual and gameplay solutions, sometimes looking degrade compared to the first two parts, disregard for background and logic of the game univerce and disgusting localization, that made my eyes cry blood, have safely dissuaded me from this desire.

If this game was not positioned as continuation of the original series, but as a separate, independent product, then I would most likely protect it - it's quite an average game on 6-7\10.

However, since this piece of code that was simply castrated, throwing out everything that made the series special, is positioned as a complete continuation, it hardly deserves even 3\10.

This game is the biggest disappointment since Fallout 4.
It is not so high-quality made, and not so polished for compete with Starcraft 2 on it's field, and the degradation of the gameplay and the visual part in comparison with the previous parts does not allow it to be a good continuation of the original series.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Broodwich » Sun 07 May, 2017 1:42 am

if gorbles arguing that dow3 isn't a moba isn't the biggest strawman i've ever seen i don't know what would be

seriously, the game is out, this is a small community... this can't possibly be worth the amount of money relic is paying you to troll dow2 players into buying their game anymore
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby appiah4 » Sun 07 May, 2017 8:37 am

That is truly a very shitty, incomplete and purposefully misleading table.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Sun 07 May, 2017 10:32 am

Broodwich wrote:if gorbles arguing that dow3 isn't a moba isn't the biggest strawman i've ever seen i don't know what would be

seriously, the game is out, this is a small community... this can't possibly be worth the amount of money relic is paying you to troll dow2 players into buying their game anymore

If all you've got is accusing me of trolling, I guess at least we have an answer to Riku's question.

Riku: we don't get along, but the answer is obvious. People don't want to debate the game's balance, etc, because they don't own it. You own it, I'm pretty sure. A few folks here do.

But the rest are content to sit here and snipe over irrelevancies, much like some of the old vDoW crowd did when DoW II came out. Patterns repeat themselves, even with different groups of people.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Aguxyz » Sun 07 May, 2017 9:27 pm

Gorbles wrote:
Broodwich wrote:if gorbles arguing that dow3 isn't a moba isn't the biggest strawman i've ever seen i don't know what would be

seriously, the game is out, this is a small community... this can't possibly be worth the amount of money relic is paying you to troll dow2 players into buying their game anymore

If all you've got is accusing me of trolling, I guess at least we have an answer to Riku's question.

Riku: we don't get along, but the answer is obvious. People don't want to debate the game's balance, etc, because they don't own it. You own it, I'm pretty sure. A few folks here do.

But the rest are content to sit here and snipe over irrelevancies, much like some of the old vDoW crowd did when DoW II came out. Patterns repeat themselves, even with different groups of people.

there have been plenty of post about the games balance you just ignore it, the games balance is beyond terrible atm as i said in my last statement theres hardly any micro going on with the current balance and meta of dow3
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Gorbles » Mon 08 May, 2017 10:18 am

Threads where? Here? Not that I can see?

The Steam forums? Stuff there gets buried due to Steam's UI and UX being able ten years out of date.

The official forums? Yeah, I've been in a few of those threads. You have no idea what I do and don't ignore, to be honest.

Relic have already talked about what they want to hit in terms of balance, and while they haven't listed everything the community is concerned about, they've definitely listed some good areas to balance. The fact that they're looking at Escalation Phases in general is very good, too.
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Psycho » Mon 08 May, 2017 5:12 pm

"relic"
"balance"
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Shroom » Mon 08 May, 2017 5:16 pm

Psycho wrote:"relic"
"balance"

nice meme
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Re: Steam Reviews are less than stellar

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Mon 08 May, 2017 7:26 pm

Agreed, in the end labels don't really matter in determining whether or not a game is objectively good or not, if such a thing exists. In theory, it's perfectly possible to take what's best of MOBA's, Starcraft, Dow I and II as well as the lore into a great game. The problem is that in a lot of cases, it also puts in the bad bits.

Also you have terminators and even BUILDINGS hiding in long grass. I've yet to verify but I think they also hide imperial knights.
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