DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Psycho » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 6:19 am

The demographic of people that play MOBAs and can go well over 1k+ dollars spent on cosmetics of said MOBAs like LoL and DotA2 far outnumbers the demographic of DoW1 and 2. They're not stupid, they're trying to lean towards a demographic that is pretty much a gold mine for them to exploit, regardless of any arguments involving morality. If I can predict it well they'll shower the game with cosmetic DLC as they did before the game was even out in the first place, and nobody will complain because it's cosmetics, but at its core it'll be milking a demographic that should, in theory, pay the upfront price + cosmetic DLC prices for the worth of multiple games rather than just one. That's how it pretty much is in the two aforementioned games, though are free in the upfront cost department.

Whether you think DoW3 is a MOBA or not is irrelevant, they're trying to gain attention in that demographic, so they cater to them, because they most likely saw how many dollaridoos LoL and DotA2 were drowning in and wanted to piggyback on the popularity of the genre. I wouldn't discount the possibility of them knowing that it will never be as successful, so they aim for a quick profit without a desire to stay in the genre/IP long term. Call it conspiracy theory, it wouldn't be that far off anyways. I would be surprised if they didn't cut massive costs by getting those MEH voice actors and wonky animations, along with maps that are just pretty much reskins of each other with changed terrain and textures here and there (Hyperbole, point stands that apparently every map was a three-laned concept, you don't need a lot of creativity to work them out).
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Chronoslayer » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 6:37 am

And then shut their ears to DOW2 players totally. Get support from DOW1 players and appease them with e sport. Maybe put it on sale on winter steam sale time for those who have either dow1 or 2.

Imo their decisions are neither efficient nor well thought out. If you want to make this DOW1 style, do it all the way through. Aren't they so good at shutting their ears to players? then why not be a real asshole and maximize profit by alienating DOW2 guys and focus soley on imporving on DOW1? This way they will get full support from resenting DOW1 players and they will somehow blindly support DLC spamming because they have a gaming style they like. I wonder what is this half ass attitude this relic guys have.

I think Relic has stated repeatedly that their goal was to try to make a product that would capture the appeal of both the DoW1 and DoW2 fanbases. Yeah, they could have tried to cater to just one of the two fanbases at the expense of patronage from the other, but If they succeeded in making something that both fanbases like, that will be more sales and more success for DoWIII. Why wouldn't they try for it, if they thought they could pull it off? Relic have already demonstrated that they aren't afraid to evolve their products into something a little different from the norm. We don't know exactly how it will turn out until some time after release, but I think all the detractors seem to not be realizing something: game journalists and participants in the closed beta have already been playing the game. And I've yet to see any of them telling horror stories. They're praising the game and saying that it is fun to play. Why would the comments of people who are actually playing the product (which still has time for polish at this point) have less weight than those of complainers who haven't even tried it yet?
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Impregnable » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 6:55 am

Psycho wrote:The demographic of people that play MOBAs and can go well over 1k+ dollars spent on cosmetics of said MOBAs like LoL and DotA2 far outnumbers the demographic of DoW1 and 2. They're not stupid, they're trying to lean towards a demographic that is pretty much a gold mine for them to exploit, regardless of any arguments involving morality. If I can predict it well they'll shower the game with cosmetic DLC as they did before the game was even out in the first place, and nobody will complain because it's cosmetics, but at its core it'll be milking a demographic that should, in theory, pay the upfront price + cosmetic DLC prices for the worth of multiple games rather than just one. That's how it pretty much is in the two aforementioned games, though are free in the upfront cost department.

Whether you think DoW3 is a MOBA or not is irrelevant, they're trying to gain attention in that demographic, so they cater to them, because they most likely saw how many dollaridoos LoL and DotA2 were drowning in and wanted to piggyback on the popularity of the genre. I wouldn't discount the possibility of them knowing that it will never be as successful, so they aim for a quick profit without a desire to stay in the genre/IP long term. Call it conspiracy theory, it wouldn't be that far off anyways. I would be surprised if they didn't cut massive costs by getting those MEH voice actors and wonky animations, along with maps that are just pretty much reskins of each other with changed terrain and textures here and there (Hyperbole, point stands that apparently every map was a three-laned concept, you don't need a lot of creativity to work them out).


What I mean is they need to choose. If they want it to be MOBA, then do it all the way through. They are not ass hole enough is my opinion. Get support from DOW1 and 2 fanbase and at the same time go for MOBA audience? What i mean by stupid is they are aiming for sth that is simply not possible. If they wanna lean towards MOBA, they better do it properly. Ditch DOW1 and 2 fanbase totally and focus on MOBA version of DOW. They aim to be everything that is why i am critical. If they really think getting DOW1 and 2 fans together with MOBA audience is possible, they are out of their mind.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Chronoslayer » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 6:58 am

Whether you think DoW3 is a MOBA or not is irrelevant, they're trying to gain attention in that demographic, so they cater to them, because they most likely saw how many dollaridoos LoL and DotA2 were drowning in and wanted to piggyback on the popularity of the genre.

So true. They've been trying to ride the MOBA wave since 2009 and that wave has only gotten bigger and doesn't look to be going away soon, while old school RTS isn't exactly exploding, popularity-wise (sorry to say). I think Relic shows some integrity by not going full on MOBA just for the cash haul. In fact, my guess is that the rise of mobile games and MOBA's with their insane micro-transaction profits are what has driven the design of AAA titles to be more DLC driven. Stockholders would eventually lose interest in investing in such projects if their profit margins were always so hugely outstripped by mobile games and MOBA's having both lower production costs and more sales generation at the same time.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Gorbles » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 12:48 pm

Psycho wrote:(Hyperbole, point stands that apparently every map was a three-laned concept, you don't need a lot of creativity to work them out).

Not sure this point stands at all. In grossly reductive terms, most vDoW and DoW II maps have "lanes". DoW III is no different, but as usual the devil is in the details (and the resource placement, and ability to jump between areas, and so on).

The MOBA comparisons are in my opinion grossly overblown. There's one mechanic, or set of mechanics (at a push) that arguably come from the MOBA 'genre', and that's the ordered destruction of certain base features in the game mode that will be arriving at release. Everything else is very much your typical RTS deal, more in the design of vDoW than DoW II (which is probably not to everybody's tastes in here, but will be in general terms more pleasing to a greater percentage of Dawn of War franchise fans). You build your base, you research upgrades, you control the map, you fortify and defend resource generation points, you build and micromanage squads . . . RTS (at least from a Dawn of War history point of view) in a nutshell.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Swift » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 1:59 pm

Why should DoW III go one way or the other? You'd rather Dow III ditch their fanbase in favour of a moba crowd? Why can't they have both?

And yes, DoW III has lanes much in the way DoW II has lanes. of course it's not the same, because you don't have cover and shot blockers, but take them away from DoW II and you get a very similar thing.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 3:39 pm

Chronoslayer wrote:I think Relic has stated repeatedly that their goal was to try to make a product that would capture the appeal of both the DoW1 and DoW2 fanbases. Yeah, they could have tried to cater to just one of the two fanbases at the expense of patronage from the other, but If they succeeded in making something that both fanbases like, that will be more sales and more success for DoWIII. Why wouldn't they try for it, if they though they could pull it off? Relic have already demonstrated that they aren't afraid to evolve their products into something a little different from the norm. We don't know exactly how it will turn out until some time after release, but I think all the detractors seem to not be realizing something: game journalists and participants in the closed beta have already been playing the game. And I've yet to see any of them telling horror stories. They're praising the game and saying that it is fun to play. Why would the comments of people who are actually playing the product (which still has time for polish at this point) have less weight than those of complainers who haven't even tried it yet?


DOW1 and DOW2 were basically on opposite ends of the RTS spectrum. DOW1 was a classic base-building, macro-heavy RTS, and DOW2 was an RTS based on small armies and high individual unit micro. I don't think it is possible to combine the best elements of both without seriously dumbing them down.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby GuruSkippy » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 5:04 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
Chronoslayer wrote:DOW1 was a classic base-building, macro-heavy RTS


I never really understood people saying this.
Classic base building ? sure, there is base building, but you don't have to build 10 barracks or so, to keep producing tons of marines. The base building is really light in DOW.
And macro heavy ? seriously ? compared to DOW2 perhaps yes, but compared to classical RTSs ? no.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Impregnable » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 5:15 pm

Oddnerd wrote:DOW1 and DOW2 were basically on opposite ends of the RTS spectrum. DOW1 was a classic base-building, macro-heavy RTS, and DOW2 was an RTS based on small armies and high individual unit micro. I don't think it is possible to combine the best elements of both without seriously dumbing them down.


It is definitely hard to appease two sides. Often than not, it ends up angering both sides and making even more fraction in fan base. In case of DOW series, VDoW and Dow II are waaay drastically different. Combining those two will be hard enough and now they want to even embed MOBA.

Relic guys must be either genius of the century or are lying about mixing them up. Imo they are going for vDow + MOBA mix while ditching DOW2 completely. It is just their lip service when they talk about getting aspects of DOW2 into the game. They better be honest about it.

Even when it comes down to mixing MOBA elements into vDOW, it will be hard to appeases both ways. If it wasn't for their butchery of COH2, ppl would believe relic would once again make a revolutionary mix up of RTS and MOBA somehow. But seeing as how they did with COH2. Their attempts to appease both sides looks very unconvincing.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 5:56 pm

GuruSkippy wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:DOW1 was a classic base-building, macro-heavy RTS


I never really understood people saying this.
Classic base building ? sure, there is base building, but you don't have to build 10 barracks or so, to keep producing tons of marines. The base building is really light in DOW.
And macro heavy ? seriously ? compared to DOW2 perhaps yes, but compared to classical RTSs ? no.


It still fits into the category of the classical base building RTSs, even if the macro is not as demanding/insane as SC2, for example. The point is, because the games fit into opposite ends of the RTS spectrum, trying to create a game that combines the best of both is difficult or impossible because you would have to cut out a huge amount of incompatible gameplay elements from each.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 7:02 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
GuruSkippy wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:DOW1 was a classic base-building, macro-heavy RTS


I never really understood people saying this.
Classic base building ? sure, there is base building, but you don't have to build 10 barracks or so, to keep producing tons of marines. The base building is really light in DOW.
And macro heavy ? seriously ? compared to DOW2 perhaps yes, but compared to classical RTSs ? no.


It still fits into the category of the classical base building RTSs, even if the macro is not as demanding as insane as SC2, for example. The point is, because the games fit into opposite ends of the RTS spectrum, trying to create a game that combines the best of both is difficult or impossible because you would have to cut out a huge amount of incompatible gameplay elements from each.


I think dow1 basebuilding was fine, very simple though when compared to AoE,SupCom,SC,WC etc, but it was just fine, dow3 base building is extremely watered down and is there only to say "look guys we've listened to the community and our game has a base building!", which is also something I criticize of CoH1&2, it's not meaningful at all.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Atlas » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 7:12 pm

From DoW2, the game lost retreat, VPs, the cover system and hero wargear. From DoW1, you lost sync kills and the ability to reinforce directly on the field (for SM anyway). That's about it in terms of gameplay elements.

And to reinforce Guru's point yeah, on the scale of rts difficulty, the DoW series is sitting right next to "Baby's First RTS" esp in DoW2. There's really not a lot to do from a mechanical point of view in DoW2 and it has to compensate for that by heavily punishing small errors.

Ace of Swords wrote:I think dow1 basebuilding was fine, very simple though when compared to AoE,SupCom,SC,WC etc, but it was just fine, dow3 base building is extremely watered down and is there only to say "look guys we've listened to the community and our game has a base building!", which is also something I criticize of CoH1&2, it's not meaningful at all.

If you miss turret walls then yes, I can see how you would think DoW3 building is watered down compared to DoW1. Otherwise I don't really agree, all the structures from DoW1 make it into DoW3 in some form or another and they do more than just build units like they did in DoW1.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Fr33man1800 » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 7:32 pm

Atlas wrote: If you miss turret walls then yes,


You clearly did not play DOW I at competitive level , cause base building did have a very important role in MP . First there is the obious, choosing what tech path are you going to do and its a HUGE part of the overall strategy for winning the game, your buildings were always part of your BO. For exaple open barracks, gen or just go armory and GLs.

Then there is the aspect of shielding your gens and giving coverage with the LPs to your production structures/ economy. And each race had its own building mechanics , for example tight bases with crons so gauss turrets cover any harass, foward bunkers with IG to get more map control , minefields or turrets to deny economy . Or just the placement of ork structures to cover your LPs or secure foward positions. Almost all races had some strategy involving their buildings.

I dont think there is much point explaining them since anybody who played the game at a decent level will tell you that buildings had a important role in MP matches.

TLDR: Playing skirmishes aganist the Hard AI in dow I does not give you an insight on how the game works ;)
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Atlas » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 7:55 pm

I brought up the turret walls in specific because that is the only thing that is NOT in any way in DoW3 unless you count the megaturrets. Otherwise, all the stuff that you have brought up is in the game as you have written. Just for vs SM, I've had players open fast plastacs, fast scouts+asm and one guy even straight to vehs with LP and gen defense early game vs me.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby GuruSkippy » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 9:39 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:I think dow1 basebuilding was fine, very simple though when compared to AoE,SupCom,SC,WC etc, but it was just fine, dow3 base building is extremely watered down and is there only to say "look guys we've listened to the community and our game has a base building!", which is also something I criticize of CoH1&2, it's not meaningful at all.


Come on,
buildings are the same in DOW1 & 3. If I look at orks, they even have one more building in DOW3 than DOW1.
The only real difference in base building between DOW1 & 3 are generators and turrets.

(btw, in DOW3, the waaagh banners are limited to 5 ? or you can build more than 5 ?)
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Lichtbringer » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 4:51 am

Ow, that gameplay doesn't look good. I can just hope its because of bad players.

Even then I can't really imagine how it's going to work, without cover and flanking.

Artstyle doesn't bother me that much, but I obviously prefered the darker grittier, more... individual (every unit in a squad is it's own entity) look of DoW2.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Toilailee » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 6:05 am

Lichtbringer wrote:Ow, that gameplay doesn't look good. I can just hope its because of bad players.

Even then I can't really imagine how it's going to work, without cover and flanking.

Artstyle doesn't bother me that much, but I obviously prefered the darker grittier, more... individual (every unit in a squad is it's own entity) look of DoW2.


Cover exists but it's more scarce and different from previous dow games. You actually have to capture a cover "point" like you would a req point and then your units gain the defensive bonus. And when you leave the cover the capping timer start ticking down and you'll lose it in a moment.

Also what the hell are you even talking about when you say there's no flanknig? As long as the maps aren't narrow one lane maps of course you can flank. The only 1v1 map in the beta is like JoC and has too many paths to take for my liking.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Carnevour » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 6:19 am

Lichtbringer wrote:Ow, that gameplay doesn't look good. I can just hope its because of bad players.

Even then I can't really imagine how it's going to work, without cover and flanking.

Artstyle doesn't bother me that much, but I obviously prefered the darker grittier, more... individual (every unit in a squad is it's own entity) look of DoW2.

Thinking flanking and positioning can be only done in DoW2 sigh. Flanking is literally bypassing an enemy from a different path to meet him from an advantageous position, you can even flank in CoD. As toilet said there is cover also you can use the line of sight blockers like vents, grass or some other stuff as cover and hiding spots. Also DoW3 is much more gore focused than the other two, you have limbs, heads and body parts litter the battlefield. Apparently they toned down brightness to make im more deprdark.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby KanKrusha » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 7:52 am

What Lichtbringer is pointing out is that in many games flanking gives you an extra bonus such as increased damage or negative morale effects on your target.

There is no bonus to flanking in dow3 compared to a full frontal assault. It actually delays getting all your units doing damage. Except, and this is actually really important, getting your melee units into combat without getting shot up. Although, most of them have an ability that does that anyway.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Swift » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 10:17 am

And there are similarly no benefits to flanking in DoW II by that logic, so what are you trying to prove?
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 10:58 am

3 huge benefits in DOW2 for flanking compared to DOW3
- denying directionnal cover (not in DOW3)
- retreat more dangerous for the enemy, still in DOW3, but no huge melee bonus vs retreating unit, nor OP grenades on retreat
- denying HWT arc of fire (not in DOW3, well I'm not sure of this one, do HWT have a limited arc of fire in DOW3 ?)
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Gorbles » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 11:07 am

People big up directional cover, but there was also criticism that cover was too easy to destroy in DoW II (especially compared to CoH where things were a bit more persistent). So it's one of those "better in theory" aspects of the game for me, especially as soon as jump units or explosive abilities started going off.

So I wouldn't call it a huge benefit, because there were various other tools for getting around it (that are generally preferred because jump units were generally melee units which enjoyed innate advantages over typically-ranged units benefiting from cover).
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 11:10 am

Totally agree on the directionnal cover part no soooooo important
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DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Nurland » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 12:58 pm

I am not quite following here. Are you guys disputing the impact of cover being directional and flankable to negate bonuses?

DoW2 cover is easy todestroy but plentiful and DA + GM can deploy cover. But the bonus you get from cover is pretty huge and negating it with flank is a big deal.

Can't comment on the impact of flanking manouvers between DoW2 and 3 since I can't fire up the Beta due to me being out of town. Will try to get some games in this weekend.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Gorbles » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 2:07 pm

Guardian cover is definitely a contentious point (mainly because it's very strong) and I was going to mention the Guardsmen but their entire design philosophy was a bit at-odds with DoW II faction design in general. I'd get sidetracked analysing it :D
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Impregnable » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 2:36 pm

Wonder whether relic can afford to experiment on these new things. Why not try vdow cover again. If they would try a little tweak from vdow with better graphics, it would be safe bet but they are trying a whole bunch of new things.

It is really hard to persuade ppl to accept changes. Just looking at how ppl resisted vdow into dow2 transition, tells the whole story. In the end, it comes down to how well relic can manage to hold all these changes together and be pursuasive. If they fail here, it will create yet another fraction in dow playerbase.

Worst case scenario is everyone is divided into vdow / dow2 / dow3 group and the whole dow series goes down the path of c&c 4. And relic get disbanded for sales drop.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Gorbles » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 3:02 pm

DoW II sold really well, for the record.

There is very little in terms of "fracture", DoW II was an inherently different game to vDoW and garnered a different playerbase over time. If DoW III doesn't mind that rift a bit, at least it's marketable to a wider demographic in the meantime.
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DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Nurland » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 3:25 pm

Guardian/DA cover is very strong indeed but so is just normal green/yellow cover. Especially early/mid parts of the game. Cover can be destroyed but it is generally plentiful. The fact that you can flank cover is pretty significant and adds to the bonuses of flanking.

DoW3 seems okay so far. Less buggy than DoW2 which is a huge bonus. Relic Isn't taking the game quite into the direction I hoped but I can live with that if the game is fun enough to play.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Impregnable » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 4:00 pm

Nurland wrote:DoW3 seems okay so far. Less buggy than DoW2 which is a huge bonus. Relic Isn't taking the game quite into the direction I hoped but I can live with that if the game is fun enough to play.


As long as they don't spam elite unit and doctrine dlc without caring for balance. I still have nightmares of how relic would carelessly release commanders and new units that are op for COH2. Every time they released sth new, i had to watch in horror as it wreaks balance up and down. After getting some juicy money from ppl who bought op dlc, they would nerf it. Relic repeated cycle for cash on purpose. Real assholes indeed. Let us see how they think of dow3. Is it cash grabbing scheme or whether they care about this franchise surviving. DLC will reveak the truth.
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Re: DOW III - Orks and Space Marine Multiplayer Gameplay

Postby Forestradio » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 5:23 pm

Impregnable wrote:As long as they don't spam elite unit and doctrine dlc without caring for balance
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