Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Gorbles
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Gorbles » Tue 21 Feb, 2017 7:52 pm

Everything in software development, everything has to be weighted against potential cost (for the benefit garnered).

That said, it doesn't mean that some things (or even a lot of things) aren't legitimately difficult challenges that the industry in general hasn't managed to solve yet. Intelligent cover-seeking AI for squads of complex entities is, to my knowledge, probably on the "have not solved yet" list. There any many other games that uses squads to the level Dawn of War does, nevermind any other factor involved.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Ar-Aamon » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 2:50 pm

Gorbles wrote:But that doesn't mean what Relic has done is necessarily wrong, either.

You're not wrong, either. It's subjective.


No, Relic is wrong. Period.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Swift » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 4:31 pm

Ar-Aamon wrote:
Gorbles wrote:But that doesn't mean what Relic has done is necessarily wrong, either.

You're not wrong, either. It's subjective.


No, Relic is wrong. Period.

Wat. It's science-fiction.

Science-FICTION. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it's the way it's done, and given it's a Relic game, it'll probably be canon too. you don't have to like it, but nothing is necessarily "right".
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Psycho » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 4:43 pm

Be wary of that line of thinking turning into an automatic justification for Relic to write Grey Knights bathing in SoB blood.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Gorbles » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 5:58 pm

Which has already happened in GW canon, regardless of whether you like it or not. Which I guess was your point.

People need to accept that regardless of whether or not like like something, that something is an entirely valid subjective interpretation. Certainly, we're not discussing putting Hello Kitty into Warhammer 40k (as fans have already done). That would be arguably beyond the bound of what is considered acceptable within the universe.

Debating whether or not power-armoured dudes can break physics as we understand it while wielding weapons that 100% break physics as we understand it (plasma weaponry in general is entirely ficticious and could never work in the modern / real world) is a bit different from Hello Kitty Marines, you see. Subjective.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Psycho » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 7:08 pm

Gorbles wrote:Which has already happened in GW canon, regardless of whether you like it or not. Which I guess was your point.


That is a very astute observation.

Gorbles wrote:Debating whether or not power-armoured dudes can break physics as we understand it while wielding weapons that 100% break physics as we understand it (plasma weaponry in general is entirely ficticious and could never work in the modern / real world) is a bit different from Hello Kitty Marines, you see. Subjective.


The argument isn't just what's at face value. The argument also involves the WHY behind the action, and what it can lead to since the devs will use similar reasoning to some other thing they want to see included. The reasoning behind the implementation of a certain animation mentioned gameplay value a grand total of zero times, while justifying it by saying that it looked cool and that Gabriel should be able to do it because he had a fancy hammer and machinery in his body. Ignore the inuniverse logic here since that is not the point of the argument in question anymore, but the implementation itself means that relic either was unable or unwilling to do anything else that would have drawn less flak while still being completely identical in gameplay value, visuals aside.

It's less about what they did and more WHY they did it and what they're willing to do in the future. For another example of a greater scale, see what relic did to CoH2 and then remember that it's the same company developing DoW3. Everything they do leaves an impression of the path they'll take in the future, and true to 40k it's pretty damn fucking grimdark.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Gorbles » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 7:16 pm

In your opinion, sure.

In my opinion, "looking cool" is an inherent part of how 40k functions (heck, the Ork race as a whole pretty much lives or dies by this at a group / Klan level) and as such is a valid reason. Especially when combined with literally any other reason.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Psycho » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 7:27 pm

Your argument implies that an alternative won't look cool too. Orks have it as an inuniverse law of physics, so it's a false equivalency.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Gorbles » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 7:49 pm

It implied nothing of the kind. It's opinion vs. opinion on what does or doesn't look cool.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Psycho » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 7:54 pm

Why are you arguing opinions, then?
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Gorbles » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 9:20 pm

I was responding to you indulging in a slippery slope argument about how Swift's logic can be used to justify something that's already happened and is already justified because pretty much anything can happen in a grimdark future about the near-end of mankind.

Science-fiction is science-fiction. It isn't science-Hello-Kitty. A dude in powered armour jumping higher than usual is withing the realms of science-fiction as established over the last several decades. A dude in powered armour suddenly becoming a cartoon kitty in powered armour in 3D existing within the same universe isn't within the realms of said science-fiction as has been defined by GW and their associated businesses over the past several decades.

We good?
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Psycho » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 11:51 pm

I don't think you understand what slippery slope means. Describing what Gabriel did as "jumping higher than usual" doesn't help your case either, nor does using the hello kitty argument as if you couldn't bring yourself to argue about what's being said.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Atlas » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 7:56 am

For the love of god, will you two get a room or something?!?! Can we NOT have these kinds of threads devolve into these silly debates?
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby MaxPower » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 11:41 am

NEVA

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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Psycho » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 2:06 pm

Ban them, Atlas. Ban them all.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby KanKrusha » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 6:04 pm

To the topic, someone has noted that only pistols have fire on the move. A casualty of the RNG removal,I guess.

No RNG = no accuracy mechanic = FOTM is 100% or nil

Could be damaged modified instead of accuracy but we shall see if it makes it in game
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Atlas » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 10:06 pm

Psycho wrote:Ban them, Atlas. Ban them all.

You're in that list too btw. What response did you expect from your posts? My patience has worn thin at this point because it's the same people saying the same stuff. Get back on topic.

KanKrusha wrote:To the topic, someone has noted that only pistols have fire on the move. A casualty of the RNG removal,I guess.

No RNG = no accuracy mechanic = FOTM is 100% or nil

Could be damaged modified instead of accuracy but we shall see if it makes it in game

Idk, but I conjecture that projectiles seem to hit terrain like walls and other bits of cover as well. I noticed it more in the mission walkthrough. I don't know if my eyes were just playing tricks on me, but it might be interesting.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Rostam » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 10:24 pm

here is something to get the thread back on its track
in the beginning the eldar mentions something about the spear of khaine . Khaine (the eldar god of war) wields a sword in general but he can actually turn that flaming sword into a spear,so i assume we are gonna see an avatar of khaine model . btw her voice is pretty good,I cant say the same about the voice actor of warboss gorgutz,his voice does not feel orky
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Swift » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 11:16 pm

Still thinking Necrons would be a great end of campaign reveal. Spear of Khaine could easily have been replaced/entrapped by Trazyn the Infinite for example.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby KanKrusha » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 2:31 am

At this stage there has been so much conjecture about the fourth race that Relic must be feeling that they have to add them one in or their audience will be hugely disappointed, in a "I am taking my money elsewhere" kinda way.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 3:18 am

There isn't anything else going on atm, why can't we have the occasional nerd fight without it getting moderated?
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Swift » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 3:40 pm

Oddnerd wrote:There isn't anything else going on atm, why can't we have the occasional nerd fight without it getting moderated?

Because most people don't want nerdfights.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 6:04 pm

NERDFIGHT

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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Black Relic » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 8:45 pm

"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby pucenoise » Sat 25 Feb, 2017 6:00 am

What I find bizarre about this debate is that WH40K has always been, from my standpoint, Saturday morning cartoons for adults. The universe's appeal completely falls apart if taken seriously; it's completely self aware, over the top, and tongue in cheek.

I think part of the issue is that 40K actually has multiple fictional tones between games, literature, fluff, and artwork. Some of the artwork is hardcore, dead serious Gothic pulp, while the blurbs on the GW website advertising the deadliness of a particular model are pathologically ham fisted.

There are then different sub-groups within the fandom who get their jollies off to different threads within the fiction. But this means that all of the threads are completely legitimate; the real debate is about which one is suitable to the product in question, and an RTS flirting with eSports/the MOBA market is going to go deep into the Saturday morning cartoons version, obviously.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sat 25 Feb, 2017 1:34 pm

Too flashy. Too messy. Half of the time don't know WTF is going on in the screen.

You failed to impress me, sorry. Well, at least if that are the models in-game looks pretty decent.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Grosvenor » Sat 25 Mar, 2017 4:36 pm

I think pucenoise post above is the most balanced and fair opinion of the game, based from what we been shown.

Based on the vids I've seen, the game has been simplified too much. In all honesty I can't see how anybody who's played DOW2 could be happy with this new game:
No Directional Cover
No Sync Kills
No Retreat
No Dynamic squad movement
No squad experience
The multiplayer is very MOBA like

I still think it's an RTS, but a very simple one, but it shouldn't have a DOW title tagged to it.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Toilailee » Sat 25 Mar, 2017 5:23 pm

Grosvenor wrote:No Directional Cover


Yes, I'd rather have the good old cover system over the dow3 one.

Grosvenor wrote:No Sync Kills


No1 who's ever played dow games seriously would want these in the game. Sync kills interfere with actual gameplay and are only there for aesthetic reasons since they apparently appeal to casual players.

Grosvenor wrote:No Retreat


Retreat is a core mechanic in dow2 and works well there, but whether it is actually good game design for every unit to have a "get out of jail free" -card is debatable.

Grosvenor wrote:No Dynamic squad movement


I don't even know what this means. If anything the squad movements were smoother in dow3, and I didn't see stuff like individual squad members getting stuck or running in the opposite direction from rest of the squad.

Grosvenor wrote:I still think it's an RTS, but a very simple one, but it shouldn't have a DOW title tagged to it.


I'm curious what are basing this proclamation on since I gather you didn't even play the game yet.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby egewithin » Sat 25 Mar, 2017 7:21 pm

I am with Toilailee on this one. Most of thing that are missing were something special to DoW II, not for RTS.

I would totally prefer DoW I cover systems one step further improved. DoW 2 covers aren't bad but you can't make it work in DoW III. Same for retreat and squad levels. IMO, DoW II is a very odd game in RTS gallery but it works good.
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Re: Dawn of War III - Prophecy of War

Postby Grosvenor » Sat 25 Mar, 2017 7:26 pm

Toilailee I know you are a very good DOW2 player so thanks for the comments.

1. Sync kills are indeed aesthetic, but you could argue that these short animations are at the very heart of DOW melee. it does interference, but it could be fixed.
2. I think retreat is a vital part of strategy. Unit preservation for one and you give up control of the map and have to fight to get it back, some would say that is strategy.
3. Dynamic Squad movement. ok I gave it a over the top name. It's the independent unit movement and animations when moving, it's more realistic than sync animation.
4. Simple RTS: it has been simplified, it's a plain as a Bulgarian Pin-Up.
Not as many weapon load-outs, no squad xp and the points I made above all make it a much simpler game. Granted I haven't played the game and can only base my opinions on what I have seen from watching youtube and the web.

I'm pretty sure there's no building cover either (not including the silly bubble cover)
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