Ork reveal for DOW 3

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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Batpimp » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 8:20 pm

totally agree. another reason why i left GW 2.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Indrid » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 11:51 pm

Some 1080p screens nabbed from the official website:

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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 3:18 am

The art from the Ork section looks so much better than the Space Marine and Eldar section. The artists are probably getting better the more they work.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Carnevour » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 7:54 am

Tbh i kinda like how marines look in DoW3, they dont have the obscure aesthetic of a giant fridge with a small head on top coupled with large pauldrons. Eldar seem as usual, nothing really drastic was changed about them except maybe the ears which i dont mind.
Orks look amazing but the only thing that rubs me the wrong way are the eyes, i preferred the orange eyes filled with bloodlust like in DoW2.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Aguxyz » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 8:26 am

well space marines are BIOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to normal humans having you know making them more tougher, the way they look in dow3 is a insult to dow lore unless you can find pictures of them looking like sticks in official GW art
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 10:27 am

No, you just don't like them. There's no correlation between the precise dimensions of a Space Marine and their genetic improvements.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 11:32 am

Image
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 1:13 pm

That's, uh, not an official GW source.

Though the fun part is actually when you realise Games Workshop don't actually know science (I mean, they make board games) because there's no physical way Space Marine physiology fits in the Astartes battle armour. It's made up space-science.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Carnevour » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 8:25 pm

Aguxyz wrote:well space marines are BIOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to normal humans having you know making them more tougher, the way they look in dow3 is a insult to dow lore unless you can find pictures of them looking like sticks in official GW art


You do realise there are many cases of artwork where the space marines had different looks and aesthetics? If it was up to me you will be still looking at beakies. Being BIOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR doesnt mean you have to look like a fridge with a head on it. New marines look less bulky yet more athletic.

Image

Image


Image

Beakies are still better.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Rostam » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 9:00 pm

Gorkanaughts's movement is very good , but the its firing pattern is not
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby MaxPower » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 12:54 am

Carnevour wrote: You do realise there are many cases of artwork where the space marines had different looks and aesthetics? If it was up to me you will be still looking at beakies. Being BIOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR doesnt mean you have to look like a fridge with a head on it. New marines look less bulky yet more athletic.

Image

Image


Image

Beakies are still better.


1. Is Fanart (iirc)
2. Offical artwork for Relic's Space Marine and guess what, they are bulky.
3. Is prolly a Rogue Trader artwork(so they didn't have the asthetics they used to have beginning with the 2nd edition of the tabletop)

From the 2nd edtion up until now all Space Marines were "fridges with a head on it".

Also, this is from the Codex Space Marines - notice something, yes, they are fucking bulky and the codicies are as official as it gets. End. Of. Discussion.

Image
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 2:30 pm

I'm not sure that that counts as "bulky". The legs in particular are quite thin.

Games Workshop art contradicts itself. Always has, always will. Their signature artists traditionally have their own styles (hence the old Beaky Marines that Carnveour linked, with their specific pose), and even newer artists will still have their own styles.

I mean, if you want an "end of discussion" kind of statement: Games Workshop approves everything Relic puts into their 40k games. They always have. "End of discussion" :p
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 3:16 pm

Gorbles wrote:Games Workshop art contradicts itself. Always has, always will. Their signature artists traditionally have their own styles (hence the old Beaky Marines that Carnveour linked, with their specific pose), and even newer artists will still have their own styles.
That's not a contradiction. The "beaky marine" is Mark VI Power armor.
So what if they have different styles? Doesn't mean that Marines suddenly are not bulky.

Gorbles wrote:I mean, if you want an "end of discussion" kind of statement: Games Workshop approves everything Relic puts into their 40k games. They always have. "End of discussion" :p
Do you have any proof of that whatsoever? I hardly believe someone at GW is approving everything Relic does or does not put into the game. They got the license to work with the IP. Just because Relic puts it in their game, doesn't make it true in the fluff. Like a chapter master being able to jump, like just because you become a chapter master you grow in size :) And so on.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 4:13 pm

There have been posts on fansites historically where Relic emphasise their relationship with Games Workshop. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

"bulky" is a matter of perspective. You might laugh at this, but Relic could stretch the vertices slightly on the Marine mesh and suddenly you'd call them "bulky". Perspective. "slim" is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't call the Marines in DoW III "slim", because the Eldar are clearly thinner and more agile. The Orks look heavier and have broader shoulders (as depicted in the lore). Context matters. You're fully-entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean Relic are wrong for theirs. As I said, even Games Workshop depicts Space Marines in different ways depending on the artist and the age of the art being depicted.

r.e. jumping: gameplay comes before lore. Always has, always will. This doesn't mean that Games Workshop doesn't approve the content, it just means there will always be lines blurred when you adapt source material in a new medium (in this case, a 3D video game).
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Psycho » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 4:39 pm

You people always fall back to your gameplay > lore idea of an argument like it's mutually exclusive.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Broodwich » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 5:18 pm

Psycho wrote:You people always fall back to your gameplay > lore idea of an argument like it's mutually exclusive.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 6:05 pm

Psycho wrote:You people always fall back to your gameplay > lore idea of an argument like it's mutually exclusive.

You're the one acting like it's a binary switch.

Gameplay comes before lore. That does not mean "gameplay or lore". It means in the event that they clash, developers should always prioritise gameplay over adherence to something that works against gameplay, to their best ability using their best judgement.

It doesn't mean you'll agree of course. But a lot of interpreting source material comes down to opinion, I have direct experience of that with 40k working for the Firestorm over Kronus modification. Compromises often have to be made, and they won't always please everyone. But sometimes you have to make a call and stick to it.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Psycho » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 6:30 pm

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby MaxPower » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 6:32 pm

Gorbles wrote:I'm not sure that that counts as "bulky". The legs in particular are quite thin.

Games Workshop art contradicts itself. Always has, always will. Their signature artists traditionally have their own styles (hence the old Beaky Marines that Carnveour linked, with their specific pose), and even newer artists will still have their own styles.


Okay, you know in what way they never did contradict themselves? When it comes to the proportions of offical regular Space Marine tabletop models (you know the tabletop that DoW is based on), and they never had thin arms or legs like they have in the cutscenes for DoW 3.

Could you please explain why, even though the artists rendition of Space Marine in an artwork might differ, the models (beginning with the 2nd edition, cant really remember if the proportions for the Space Marine models differed in Rogue Trader or not) always had the same proportions then?
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 6:42 pm

You're missing the point, which is that Relic is always right.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 7:35 pm

Constructive, Oddnerd :)

MaxPower wrote:
Gorbles wrote:I'm not sure that that counts as "bulky". The legs in particular are quite thin.

Games Workshop art contradicts itself. Always has, always will. Their signature artists traditionally have their own styles (hence the old Beaky Marines that Carnveour linked, with their specific pose), and even newer artists will still have their own styles.


Okay, you know in what way they never did contradict themselves? When it comes to the proportions of offical regular Space Marine tabletop models (you know the tabletop that DoW is based on), and they never had thin arms or legs like they have in the cutscenes for DoW 3.

Could you please explain why, even though the artists rendition of Space Marine in an artwork might differ, the models (beginning with the 2nd edition, cant really remember if the proportions for the Space Marine models differed in Rogue Trader or not) always had the same proportions then?

Did you know that the resin molds required to make the models have restrictions that enforce certain design decisions? The newest molds are of course better, and Finecast is even better than that, but the technology inherently inhibits the frames of the models themselves.

And yes, the models have most definitely changed. The fact that the original five-man painter starter set of Ultramarines came with just attachable boltguns gives them an entirely different frame from the new-style modular kits used in the latest generation. The new ones stand taller, too.

I played the game from end of 2ed to the start of 5ed. I played as Chaos, and we got stuck with the bottom end of copied Marine kits in the earlier generations (especially the vehicles, gods) for longer than the main SM lineup did. I'm well aware of the models and how they changed. Khorne Beserkers in particular have been stuck with stumpy plastic legs for generations.

Also the difference between Guardsman and Space Marine isn't as large as apparently it's referenced in all other media. Because Tabletop standardises model sizes as to help perception of value for money:

Image

(which is what inspired people to start making their own fankits of "True Scale" Space Marine miniatures)
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby MaxPower » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 8:10 pm

Gorbles wrote: Did you know that the resin molds required to make the models have restrictions that enforce certain design decisions? The newest molds are of course better, and Finecast is even better than that, but the technology inherently inhibits the frames of the models themselves.


Okay, first off, sarcastic remark on my end to your question: NO shit sherlock! - With that out of the way, I'm sorry, wasn't meant in any ill manner.

Also you've said that the models (remember I'm talking about regular Space Marine models here) have changed over time and yes while that is true, they only gave them more details or more dramatic poses, they didnt shrink the size of their greaves or vambraces. They are still bulky and retain the same proportions of Space Marine models from the 2nd edition:

Image
2nd edition

Image
6th edition

Image
DoW 3 - These guys on the other hand do not have the same characteristics (regarding proportions) as all regular Space Marine models

My main problem is the fact that they kinda look too lean, especially the arms and the upper legs, well and the arms legs of them being way too long.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Gorbles » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 8:44 pm

I thought we were talking about the ingame models, sorry; the cinematic models are definitely more stretched-out. I'm not sure whether I think they're right or not either, but then again that wouldn't be the first artistic license the cinematic videos have taken.

(the 2ed models are also smaller than the 6ed kits, from what I remember. Certainly, units like Assault Marines have changed perceptably; moreso than Tacticals)
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Carnevour » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 8:57 pm

Psycho wrote:Whatever helps you sleep at night.


Let me ask you do you play games or stare at them? If the latter why dont you just watch streams of other people playing and if you do play then isnt gameplay important for you to enjoy the game?
For example i play games and i want gameplay and story to go hand in hand instead of having one prevail against the other but i do understand when gameplay usually is preferable to the story or lore in this case. Because in the end you play the game, and you dont play it just once you play it over and over since its an RTS where you have a community that will be PvP, but i guess you cant look beyond the shallow border of muh 14 year-old grimdarkness angst.
The only games where i forgive gameplay are a few exceptions that are redeemed by a truly fascinating story, such as Silent Hill 2,3,4, Spec Ops: the line, metal gear solid 3 (shooting mechanics sucked dick) and some other few. But these are different type of game they are all single player games.

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Relic is not always right but so are you smug snappy comebacks, as was said if you dont like something thats fine, but in the end you look like a typical hypocrite if you will buy the game, which means Relic still wins. If you really believe that Relic ruined DoW3 for you at the start vote with your wallet instead of throwing tantrums without any arguments except muh Moba or muh jumping terminators.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Psycho » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 9:16 pm

Carnevour wrote:but i guess you cant look beyond the shallow border of muh 14 year-old grimdarkness angst.


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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Carnevour » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 9:35 pm

Psycho wrote:
Carnevour wrote:but i guess you cant look beyond the shallow border of muh 14 year-old grimdarkness angst.




Shit you owned me fam.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Swift » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 9:47 pm

I'm actually tempted to put an embargo on DoW III for a week, clearly you Grots can't handle it (or each other).
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Odysseus » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 7:03 am

Just a quick general question: What do disproportionate models have to do with gameplay?

As someone who works with a small team on his own modding projects, I can assure you that 99% gameplay is about statistics and coding, which has almost nothing to do with visuals. If you want visuals to have impact on the gameplay, you have to code it, otherwise visuals only serve as a distraction.

If there is something you learn in the years of developing a mod and participating/working with multiple balancers and processing gameplay-related feedback, is that balance is (Citing Gorbles here :P), a matter of perspective. As cliché as it might sound, ''perfect'' balance does not exist. There will always be that one person that finds this one thing to abuse or exploit, creating some kind of concern, dissatisfaction or outrage, leading to a batch of changes hopefully fixing the issues, but then creating new plotholes in the process. This then continues our vicious cycle of ''gameplay over lore'' versus ''lore-based gameplay first''. The only thing you can hope for is to mix lore, visuals and gameplay elements to a certain degree and create a playable game. Most of us have not been able to play DoW III yet so that leaves gameplay out for now, but when it comes to visuals, it is at the very least underwhelming compared to the visual impression the previous games had left us with at the time, so much in the sense that it is enough to create controversy about animations and visual clarity. After all, you don't get a second chance for a first impression, no matter how stupid it may seem.

Personally, I appreciate the need for Relic to change things up, I really do. Company of Heroes II didn't really cut it, so I can imagine that they might have too, but I don't see why you would ditch the unique mechanics of the previous installments in trying to become more like Starcraft. There already IS Starcraft. If people would like to play a competitive game, people will choose Starcraft over this. Dawn of War has never had anything significant playerbase-wise, and never will. The 40K universe is way too absurd and niche for that. The only thing that is keeping the 40K alive is the tabletop, which is where the franchise generates its biggest numbers. I am pretty confident that, without its lore, Dawn of War would just be another generic sci-fi universe, like Grey Goo. But I suppose I'm just rambling now.
If Dawn of War is to take any inspiration from other games, I'd take Total War, like what they did with Total War Warhammer. It would make a lot more sense, in my opinion, instead of Starcraft II. Anything that even tried to compete with the success of Starcraft II and MOBAs has failed miserably, the only games holding some small candles against the dark were Age of Empires II (which was re-released on Steam) and Counterstrike, which isn't even an RTS, so why not just maintain those special aspects and polish them to the best of your abilities? It's what kept this game alive and gave it a unique identity in so far, no?

Anyway, we'll see what happens. More on topic, I agree with most posters here that the Orks look the most fitting of the three, even though I thought the Eldar would fit the new art direction the most. I hope they organise a beta or some kind of demo, so I can judge something else besides the visuals. As a fan, I am willing to pay for the game, if only to keep the DoW franchise alive, even if it means playing a game I won't enjoy as much as the previous ones. After all, it's the only representation 40K has on the strategic front of games and it's not impossible for the DoW franchise to be dropped if it fares poorly.

Just my two cents. Please don't hurt me.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 10:06 am

I really don't get why people are comparing DOW3 with SC2.
DOW3 compared with MOBAs ? I can understand why, to some extent.

But SC2 ?

I mean...
SC (or old style RTS) is about ressource gathering wih some kind of peons, no squad based but unit by unit control, and no melee or range difference.
DOW is about ressource by capping some points, squad based, and melee/range difference.

It's still here !!!
So what the fuck is SC2 in DOW3 gameplaywise.
Plz explain me.
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Re: Ork reveal for DOW 3

Postby Odysseus » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 1:19 pm

It's mostly the art direction they are taking and their stance to making the game more e-sports ''friendly''. Starcraft II has an absolute monopoly on the RTS Esports, so in my opinion, going that route is just going to end in another disappointment. Relic has tasted the ESL with COH2, so now they can't let go of the taste.

I also personally compare it to Starcraft because Starcraft has set the standard for the traditional RTS games for well over a decade now. Any new RTS game introduced always has to look at their entrance and position in the market compared to Starcraft, since it is the only RTS game still alive after all this time with actually a positive source of income. Once more, Relic wants the Esports, they crave the Esports, which is why they took inspiration from Starcraft II and MOBAs, which they literally stated in their interviews, in the hopes of gaining and maintaining a bigger audience.

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