DoW3 new footage

Gorbles
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Gorbles » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 3:52 pm

You don't have to be a games designer to criticise a game. But the mere existence of being a games designer probably improves the opinions you're putting out.

I mean, it's funny right. People criticise developers all the time and go "well you don't have to be an expert". You don't, but it helps. But even funnier, when you get criticised in response (generic you), people get flustered and start throwing around fallacies like it's going out of fashion.

People expect the developers to handle being told they're ("objectively") wrong, when people can't even tolerate being told they might be inaccurate in their assumptions. It's golden.

If it's not the game for you, absolutely fair. Maybe find a new game to look forward to though, aye?
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Psycho » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 4:00 pm

Forestradio wrote:you don't have to be a politician to say Donald Trump is terrible


His wall isn't gonna be made out of bubble cover, you gotta give that to him at the very least.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 4:05 pm

Gorb wrote:You don't have to be a games designer to criticise a game. But the mere existence of being a games designer probably improves the opinions you're putting out.

I mean, it's funny right. People criticise developers all the time and go "well you don't have to be an expert". You don't, but it helps. But even funnier, when you get criticised in response (generic you), people get flustered and start throwing around fallacies like it's going out of fashion.

People expect the developers to handle being told they're ("objectively") wrong, when people can't even tolerate being told they might be inaccurate in their assumptions. It's golden.

If it's not the game for you, absolutely fair. Maybe find a new game to look forward to though, aye?


People who actually play the game know what they want and what they ask from relic, no nobody is asking for dow3 to be dow2 but what everyone has been asking dow3 to be and this includes the dow1 fanbase, is dow 1 with the improved mechanics from dow2 and a much, much larger scale than the 2 games combined and so far or at least from what they released on the streams and pc gamer interviews it's failing to deliver on all sides.

And has proved by recent history with many major brands failing (first one to come to my mind is C&C with C&C 4) which absolutely fail to deliver what the loyal AND casual fanbase want, the game designers know little on how to handle design choices (this becomes even more true when it's not even the same people working on the sequel) and especially balance (and this was shown by relic with all of their games though through the feedback of the pros within 1-2 years from release dow1,dow2 and coh2 would become playable games) so to summarize yes, expert RTS players do know better than games devs, I mean starcraft is mechanically and balance wise a great game (I only criticize it for acti-blizz business practices and lack of even the most basic innovation in a more than 10 years old brand) and it is because the lead game design used to be a pro starcraft player, in summary players with deep insight on the game do know way better than the developers, we have the living proof here in caeltos, this mod was almost perfectly balanced when he actively played the game and experienced on his skin the changes, then is slowly dripped into retarded design choices the less he played still he stopped completely.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Psycho » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 4:11 pm

Carnevour wrote:Internet sarcasm is still too hard to understand even in 2016. :/


It's ill-advised to attempt sarcasm in a text-only medium where tone of voice and body language do not exist.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Swift » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 4:22 pm

Psycho wrote:
Internet sarcasm is still too hard to understand even in 2016. :/


It's ill-advised to attempt sarcasm in a text-only medium where tone of voice and body language do not exist.

You'd be talking to me then :[
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Psycho » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 4:25 pm

Swiftsabre wrote:
Psycho wrote:
Internet sarcasm is still too hard to understand even in 2016. :/


It's ill-advised to attempt sarcasm in a text-only medium where tone of voice and body language do not exist.

You'd be talking to me then :[


Might as well start it with 'To whom it may concern' seeing as it's not as uncommon as you'd be led to believe.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Swift » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 4:56 pm

Psycho wrote:
Swiftsabre wrote:
Psycho wrote:
It's ill-advised to attempt sarcasm in a text-only medium where tone of voice and body language do not exist.

You'd be talking to me then :[


Might as well start it with 'To whom it may concern' seeing as it's not as uncommon as you'd be led to believe.

But I put a ( :] ) sarcasm face next to it :[
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Blood Dragon » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 6:29 pm

Disgusting this things.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 6:50 pm

enasni127 wrote:- the game must be ugly and oversimplified to attract more idiots (especially the SC 2 community)
- the game must be a "straight forward experience" which means just shitting out units and let them push down their tight lane against the enemy's forces.


I think it is unfair to knock on SC2 fans, but I agree that the design of DOW3 reeks of so-called "streamlining", the concept that is slowly rotting away the foundations of the Total War franchise and the Bethesda RPGs. Unfortunately the casual "McGaming" market is much larger and easier to exploit than the market for people who like their RPG/RTS games complex and detail-oriented.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Dineil » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:37 pm

Here you go guys. It is set in stone now. The guy says that this gameplay is indicative of the final product so no alpha bullshit here. Also got to love the awkwardness when the sync kills question came about :p

http://www.ign.com/videos/2016/08/17/wa ... escom-2016
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Gorbles » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:30 pm

The only good RTS game is one where you click one hundred pointless buttons a minute to keep your numbers high.

Actually works for RPGs too.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Swift » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:41 pm

Gorb wrote:The only good RTS game is one where you click one hundred pointless buttons a minute to keep your numbers high.

Actually works for RPGs too.

I seem to remember watching the end of a Diablo 3 lets play. Crikey was is spammy and bullet spongey.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Torpid » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:44 pm

You guys wanting a game that is DOW1 style gameplay with the nice bits of dow2 adding in - tactical flanking being advantageous, micro management of units in battle making a huge difference, Heroes being inluential in combat especially when microed well but also a streamlined base building system with huge armies and battles should look into halo wars 2.

Sure it isn't 40k and it also doesn't allow you to build bases anywhere, but it has all the other traits and I feel a lot of you will like it. That's the RTS I am going to be playing competitively. No doubt creative assembly will be better able to balance their RTS than Relic anyway...
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Swift » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:42 pm

Torpid wrote:You guys wanting a game that is DOW1 style gameplay with the nice bits of dow2 adding in - tactical flanking being advantageous, micro management of units in battle making a huge difference, Heroes being inluential in combat especially when microed well but also a streamlined base building system with huge armies and battles should look into halo wars 2.

Sure it isn't 40k and it also doesn't allow you to build bases anywhere, but it has all the other traits and I feel a lot of you will like it. That's the RTS I am going to be playing competitively. No doubt creative assembly will be better able to balance their RTS than Relic anyway...

Will it be on PC?
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Caeltos » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:10 am

Dineil wrote:Here you go guys. It is set in stone now. The guy says that this gameplay is indicative of the final product so no alpha bullshit here. Also got to love the awkwardness when the sync kills question came about :p

http://www.ign.com/videos/2016/08/17/wa ... escom-2016


It was already confirmed in an earlier interview that Sync Kills would not be introduced. I even mentioned it on an earlier note, earlier next month with how things are panning out from my own predictions, and how the empthasize on violence mid-combat is the replacement for the sync-kills

Remove pointless, blood splattering(no gore involved sync kills) with gratified mid-combat violence that allows for dismemberment and etc.
You add in violence, but you add consistency. How anyone complain over that in terms of gameplay is fucking baffling. Considering how many people complain about sync kills in DOW2 ruining their game, and same applies to Dawn of War 1. It's as if they had a useless system in DOW1 and DOW2 they want the same crap in DOW3, eventho it's been evidently not a very good addition to the game, from a gameplay perspective in a PvP enviroment.

Fine in singleplayer for all I care, but I'm not going to miss it one bit. I'm not going to miss the cover and it's tacked on problems either. Just because your simplfiying the landscape and it's enviroment doesn't mean you're making it any easier to master. Starcraft 1 had a relatively simple landscape, but it was quite layered with depths, via the gameplay interactions, with units and abilities.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Torpid » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:13 am

Swiftsabre wrote:
Torpid wrote:You guys wanting a game that is DOW1 style gameplay with the nice bits of dow2 adding in - tactical flanking being advantageous, micro management of units in battle making a huge difference, Heroes being inluential in combat especially when microed well but also a streamlined base building system with huge armies and battles should look into halo wars 2.

Sure it isn't 40k and it also doesn't allow you to build bases anywhere, but it has all the other traits and I feel a lot of you will like it. That's the RTS I am going to be playing competitively. No doubt creative assembly will be better able to balance their RTS than Relic anyway...

Will it be on PC?


Windows 10 only, but yes.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Forestradio » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 2:26 am

Gorb wrote:You don't have to be a games designer to criticise a game. But the mere existence of being a games designer probably improves the opinions you're putting out.

I mean, it's funny right. People criticise developers all the time and go "well you don't have to be an expert". You don't, but it helps. But even funnier, when you get criticised in response (generic you), people get flustered and start throwing around fallacies like it's going out of fashion.

People expect the developers to handle being told they're ("objectively") wrong, when people can't even tolerate being told they might be inaccurate in their assumptions. It's golden.

If it's not the game for you, absolutely fair. Maybe find a new game to look forward to though, aye?


Except in this case we're talking about Relic designers, who knows, judging from their interviews/streaming exhibitions they are not especially good at conveying what's going on and what their intentions are (see previous comment on dread ranged weapons), maybe they should work on that so we can accurately assess the product.

What's important in the end is not the developer's opinion or the "expert" opinions, it's the consumer's opinion, if enough people have criticisms then the product will not sell plain and simple.

People expect developers to listen to criticism, the same way everyone everywhere should be able to listen to criticism. Especially if the critics are the ones who are going to be giving you money. And if they they won't change anything based on criticism, which is probably not feasible given how far along the game development is at this point, they could at least give some real details about the game, like a release date, or even showcase an actual multiplayer match instead of a steamroll campaign mission.

Torpid wrote:No doubt infinite monkeys on typewriters would be better able to balance anRTS than Relic anyway...
fixed that for ya
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby darthmisery » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 3:21 am

In my experience with relic on the main Dow 3 forums, all they do is insult and degrade anyone who doesn't agree with what they're doing. Bad form on their part.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Caeltos » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 3:33 am

they could at least give some real details about the game, like a release date, or even showcase an actual multiplayer match instead of a steamroll campaign mission.


They probably can't give any more specific dates due to they don't know really know when they'll be able to wrap it all up. Besides that, it's also a discussion between the Publisher and the studio to decide, and by the sound of things, it hasn't settled yet. The problem is, if they were vocal about it - it could turn ugly for the relationship between the publisher and the studio behind the game, "BLAH THE GMAE WAS RUSHED, QQ SEGA BAD BAD" a tad exagurration, but I think they don't want to tarnish anything they've got going for them.

As for multiplayer, debatable. Starcraft 2 didn't showcase much multiplayer the first time it was released, it was just like DOW3's announcement and it highlighted units and the concept of the game. This is exactly the same thing, and people need to get a grip on how things are done. They'll get around to showcasing multiplayer when the components are in place, so people don't flip out over work in progress stuff. WHICH they ALREADY are.

It doesn't matter if there's a huge label "work in progress" on the screen, people will just rip it apart either way. Or even games that are early-access, (as in again - in-development). A prime example that I can think of is Eternal Crusade that's come a long way from 1 year ago, but the fact they've been so vocal and expressive about their intentions, I think it has accidently backfired on them due to people getting a first bad impression, back then there were so many flaws - sloppy animations, questionable voice acting and etc. Now it's not that bad infact, but the damage has already been done for the game, and it'll be hard to recover from it.

If the campaign highlight reel didn't go as planned, it would paint an ugly picture and be a bad demonstration of units purposes. You need things to go relatively smooth. It again, doesn't matter if they've even said that the purpose of the demonstration is to showcase the unit, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE FUCKING COMPLAINING because they don't fucking understand why they're showing it. Triggers me greatly.

Sometimes I think the general toxicity has gotten to peoples head, and everyones getting dumber for it.

If you're not interested in the game, fine - but don't go tarnishing the people that's working on the game. Make your decision with your wallet, but don't be a fucking hypocrite in the end and buy the game after going on about' how fucking terrible it looks, and you don't approve of their direction. And telling people "oh boy this looks crap glad im not spending 60£/$ on this ololol!" then all of a sudden your online playing Dawn of War 3 on steam.

And I promise you, we already have plenty of gullible twats like that already.

In my experience with relic on the main Dow 3 forums, all they do is insult and degrade anyone who doesn't agree with what they're doing. Bad form on their part.

Show me ONE RELIC EMPLOYEE that has said that. Otherwise, you're just spouting garbage.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby darthmisery » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 5:13 am

@caeltos, I'm not trying to start a fight man and I'm not spouting garbage. Ellie and someone else I can't remember were calling another guy a noob and a loser I think for disagreeing about not having a retreat mechanic. I'm trying to find the thread again atm but I can't find it yet. If I misread it then I apologize. I'm not a negative person and I love the elite mod, if I don't end up enjoying Dow 3 I'm quite happy to keep playing elite.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Atlas » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 5:27 am

100% agreed with Caeltos. The amount of outrageous salt I'm hearing here and elsewhere about a game that's probably at least a year out is just stupid. You'd think Relic burned your house down from some comments.

I have half a mind to just delete this whole darn thread and pretend it never happened, but that is probably a little too Nazi-mod. Instead I'll just say that you all need to take some serious chill pills.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Gorbles » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 9:00 am

darthmisery wrote:In my experience with relic on the main Dow 3 forums, all they do is insult and degrade anyone who doesn't agree with what they're doing. Bad form on their part.
darthmisery wrote:@caeltos, I'm not trying to start a fight man and I'm not spouting garbage. Ellie and someone else I can't remember were calling another guy a noob and a loser I think for disagreeing about not having a retreat mechanic. I'm trying to find the thread again atm but I can't find it yet. If I misread it then I apologize. I'm not a negative person and I love the elite mod, if I don't end up enjoying Dow 3 I'm quite happy to keep playing elite.

Ellie is not a Relic staff member or volunteer moderator, and if you see people calling you names please report them.

Writing off an entire forum just because someone said something to you once is unfair on the forum as a whole. I'd also be surprised at how you lasted here either :p
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby darthmisery » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:40 am

@gorb, I wasn't writing off the whole forum, there just seems to be a lot of negativity on both sides. Look just forget I said anything. Was just sharing my experience.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Gorbles » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:40 pm

Your experience is taken seriously, trust me. But I see a lot of negativity in general around places (including here). As a moderator over there, I just like to know specifics, that's all. Message me if you want to.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 4:29 pm

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/21/warhammer ... k-6020370/

21/07 (last month) but somehow I missed this interview.

GC: And yet Starcraft is very fast-paced and focused on tournament play. And it didn’t really look like your demo was going in that direction, especially given how slow many of the Warhammer units tend to be.

PB: No, no. We are focusing on campaign play as the thing that will bring people to it, and the thing that will bring returning players – that’s where they’ll start. So that’s where we’re rolling out the welcome mat. We absolutely are going to launch with a full suite of multiplayer. People will be able to play with and against their friends in multiplayer on day one.

And we are making a game that’s a lot of fun to watch, so if that takes off in the eSports space or competitive space, great. But that’s not what we’re building towards. We’re building towards that really fun experience.

And just to hit on that point of Warhammer feeling slow. You’re right, like a big unit like the Imperial Knight, you wouldn’t expect it to be dancing across the field. But it’s important that the player understand quickly that their command has been issued. So even though she’s slow she does immediately start that movement. And that’s the type of thing we wanted to make sure was there.


Well, so much for dow3 esports.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 4:37 pm

The game still looks great, but Relic’s desire to appeal to modern gamers, particularly MOBA fans, is obvious


Uh-oh, he said MOBA, time to deploy the RIDF.

Naturally, the guy playing does win in the end though, polishing off the Eldar base with a space laser called the Finger of God – which gets more powerful the more enemies you catch with it.


Uggh, hopefully this gimmicky bullshit is a one-off and not something we can expect from balance in general. For some reason this feels very Call of Duty-esque.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 4:42 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
Uggh, hopefully this gimmicky bullshit is a one-off and not something we can expect from balance in general. For some reason this feels very Call of Duty-esque.


I expect that to be a campaign only thing, even more so because the orbital batteries of the imperium's ships don't allow for that kind of manouvering of the "laser".
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Torpid » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 5:05 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/21/warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-iii-preview-and-interview-grimdark-strikes-back-6020370/

21/07 (last month) but somehow I missed this interview.

GC: And yet Starcraft is very fast-paced and focused on tournament play. And it didn’t really look like your demo was going in that direction, especially given how slow many of the Warhammer units tend to be.

PB: No, no. We are focusing on campaign play as the thing that will bring people to it, and the thing that will bring returning players – that’s where they’ll start. So that’s where we’re rolling out the welcome mat. We absolutely are going to launch with a full suite of multiplayer. People will be able to play with and against their friends in multiplayer on day one.

And we are making a game that’s a lot of fun to watch, so if that takes off in the eSports space or competitive space, great. But that’s not what we’re building towards. We’re building towards that really fun experience.

And just to hit on that point of Warhammer feeling slow. You’re right, like a big unit like the Imperial Knight, you wouldn’t expect it to be dancing across the field. But it’s important that the player understand quickly that their command has been issued. So even though she’s slow she does immediately start that movement. And that’s the type of thing we wanted to make sure was there.


Well, so much for dow3 esports.


That interview just made me lose even more faith in this title. Ffs. What the hell. Sell outs.
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Caeltos » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 5:32 pm

You don't build a game around being a e-sports from day 0, you need a product that's fun first and foremost, the competetive aspect will come naturally if there's a demand for it, or if it's passable. Forced e-sport games rarely do well. Or even struggle to find their identity.

Starcraft wasn't an omg wtf esport game day 1
CS was not an omg wtf esport game day 1
DOTA was not omg wtf esport game day 1
LOL was not omg wtf esport game day 1
Street Fighter was not omg wtf esport game day 1
Smash was not omg wtf esport game day 1

Do I fucking need to go on?
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Re: DoW3 new footage

Postby Gorbles » Thu 18 Aug, 2016 6:11 pm

It's interesting reading the comments here hyping massive on eSports and DoW II design contrasted to the official forums where it's more decidedly vDoW and no eSports.

I don't think there's ever been a more obvious example of DoW III being unable to please everyone. DoW II didn't suffer to this extent pre-release because people only had vDoW to compare it to. We now have two divergent products that Relic are attempting to bring back under one banner and fans of each are disgruntled over separate aspects of the game.

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