First ingame video (it's in German though)

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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Psycho » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:09 pm

There is no need to be upset and shit on DoW2 when someone disagrees with you.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Swift » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:20 pm

Deleted Carnevour's post.

I'm interested in the game so it's not some stupid vendetta pushing, but you need to lay off the other members of this forum, if they have backward beliefs let them rot, but don't publically crusade.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Carnevour » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:22 pm

Aight mods fair enough i did overstep a few boundaries.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Forestradio » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:43 pm

Gorb wrote:1. Lore contradicts itself once a week on a Sunday, and twice every other Thursday.

2. Gameplay before adherence to lore, always.

I mean if your chief complaint is that "this fantasy space game is unrealistic", I suppose Relic haven't done too badly. It's not like bodies exploding into neatly-formed giblets was ever technically realistic.


1. Well I wouldn't expect anything better from the same people who gave us Khorne-worshipping librarians I guess.

2. There are countless ways of better implementing terminators/SM heroes heroes than bouncing hammer bunnies of doom. See dow1 and dow2 for details. But I guess we need to make it more like a MOBA.

It's not my chief complaint I was just re-reading a 40k novel and it occurred to me, I have lots of complaints actually but won't actually bother with any of them since nothing will happen anyways. Though I will say that the voice actor for Angelos sounds terrible, he was much better in dow1 and dow2.

And yes a body can be vaporized/explode like that within any number of sci-fi universes, 40k included, it all depends on what the setup of the lore is and what weaponry/"magic" is involved, and considering the basic gun in 40k is a rapid fire rocket launcher... yeah it's not going to be pretty when that impacts unarmored flesh.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:25 pm

It's nice how you attempt to rationalise the things you want to, but don't attempt the same with things you don't want to.

It's all just preconceptions. You don't want to like something, ergo, no amount of convincing will ever make you.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Ucecux » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:52 pm

So... why do ASM explode in yellow lightning when they land?
Also the plasma projectiles look like they were casted by some sorcerer rather than being shot from a plasma gun.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Carnevour » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:06 pm

People that are moaning at the footage shown dont make sense Riku. The only thing i hear stamps of cartoon and moba. Funny enough everyone was saying the moba part about DoW2, why are you still playing such a moba game im actually puzzled. The current discussion here is nothing more than people throwing stamps like cartoon thinking that it validates their opinion on why the gameplay footage looks bad without any cohesive arguments. If you say lore than I would not be suprised if they say that now you can jump as a terminator and be fast since lore can always change in a sci fi setting wih ''magic'' making it already ''un-realstic''.
I never realised that the long and hard lesson the gaming industry has been learning about that graphics dont make good game play hasn't still caught up to like a lot of people.
One thing to add that relic did tell when they announced the game that its going to be a blend of dow 1 and dow 2 and thats exactly what you are getting, so either you have no idea what you were playing for the past decade or you think that its possible to design a game which will never be made due to financial and technological limitations of what you can do when creating a game. So yeah either people are just moaning for the sake of moaning or people have such expectations that no one can make.

P.S. my last post i dont want to break the post count.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Swift » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:12 pm

All I'm going to say is people are overreacting. If at release it is similar to what we see here them that's cause for some concern, but you may find you've adapted to things by then.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:18 pm

There are many more concerns than "cartoon" and "moba". How the hell is DoW2 a moba btw? °_O
Terminator lore doesn't just change this drastically... I for one don't like how Super Mario Angelos is going about throwing his hammer in the air.
That has nothing to do with the gameplay yet though. I can dislike the visuals shown nonetheless.
And sci-fi settings can still make sense. You take x amounts of unrealistic fantasy parts but still have the rest follow common sense, the laws of physics, etc.
That's a good sci-fi.

Bottom line is that people can moan as much as they want. They decide to buy it or not in the end. And they can have their own opinion on things regardless.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Atlas » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:49 pm

It's really strange, but I'm with Carnevour and Gorb on this one. I already had my moaning session when they went from Red Alert 2 to Red Alert 3 where I cried "too cartoony" and that turned out fine. More stylized graphics tend to hold up better over time and it's really not a deal breaker to me.

There's really nothing wrong with taking the good aspects from other games, like MOBAs in this case. I mean, who doesn't want more responsive units for example? I personally don't like the Last Stand mode but it works for some people.

I'm seeing a lot of crying in this thread but I think that's all very premature right now.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Swift » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:57 pm

Deleted another post.

The criticism is fine, but this thread is devolving into personal attacks fast. Change this, and nothing else gets deleted.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Galrauch » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:05 pm

Dark Riku wrote:And sci-fi settings can still make sense. You take x amounts of unrealistic fantasy parts but still have the rest follow common sense, the laws of physics, etc.
That's a good sci-fi.


This. I really dislike the argument:"its fantasy/sci-fi so you cant argue with realism". You cant just do whatever you want and then say "its fantasy, its unrealistic so I can do what I want". Every fantasy/sci-fi universe has its boundaries and establishes a kind of "own realism" so to speak. The boundaries can be stretched and rearranged to some degree. But some things just go over the top and simply do not fit. For example: you cant just put a warcraft mage/warlock summonig portals/demons and shooting fireballs around into the lotr world. No doubt such warlocks/mages fit into fantasy and wouldnt even be distinguishable in some other fantasy universes but in lotr this would just be total bs.

And what swift said. People are overreacting for the state the game is in right now. It is god damn pre-alpha. I dont really like what I saw so far but I also have seen just one gameplay trailer. Nothing to doom the game for at this point.

Hope my English is fine. Its late and im tired and its not my native language, so please excuse any mistakes and weird phrasing.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Odysseus » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:23 pm

I'm going to have to side with the critics here. Swift may have a point, we might me overreacting, but still, I think Forest summed up some of my thoughts nicely.

I appreciate Relic's sentiment of trying to change things up, and I do enjoy MOBAs, but the artstyle is just a major turnoff, especially for DoW. It has already been said numerous times that the cartoony artstyle kills all the grittyness of the universe, which it is so loved for. For a first impression, during those trailers and gameplay vids, all I could think was: Bloody hell my eyes, what have they done to my gothic and thoroughly depressing universe? As I would like to say, I think for a franchise and a special universe such as Warhammer 40k, the artstyle is more than just ''visuals'' or pretty effects. It makes you feel exactly what the designer of Relic said in that article; up close and personal with your troops, it makes the universe come alive. Why they decided to steer away from this is beyond me. I thought they would combine an improved artstyle reminiscent of DoW II with large scale battles similar to DoW I but then even bigger. The more I think about this specifically, the more I feel like it was Relic not having enough funds to upgrade the engine accordingly. Furthermore, publicly stating, in the year of 2016, that you wish to sacrifice graphics for larger battles is a pretty pathetic argument, in my opinion, especially with all the means developers have at their disposal these days. I am not surprised that many die hard fans refuse to swallow it.

Let alone all the shenanigans concerning the lore. It is exactly the lore that has brought Warhammer 40k where it is now. Yes, gameplay is more important than lore in practice, but the lore should shape the design, and the most marginal amount of concessions should really be made when it comes to animating the atmosphere of the game. As Forest and Riku said, putting on suits that weigh a bloody ton and then defying the laws of gravity is revulsing and quite the disrespect towards the lore to say the least. Moreover, I fail to see how Terminators being slow, cumbersome and tanky interferes with gameplay. It's exactly what they are supposed to be. They soak up fire and retaliate in heavy slug fests.

Generally, I think a lot of people are forgetting that Warhammer 40k, even though it is a sci-fi universe with aliens, mutants, daemons being present, it does take itself quite seriously. Many authors have spent years of their time to pay attention to the little details that make 40K what 40k is. To reiterate: The universe gives itself more than enough room to play around with, but it never takes off and gets lost in the clouds somewhere by defying the laws of gravity or psychic powers without proper explanation. Just look up the amount of detail Warhammer 40k gives on the Space Marine Biological composition, or the classification system of planets in the imperium. I think it is safe to say that it does try to reach a somewhat real and gritty approach in the setting itself. There are so many details, and sacrificing these details is really just a wasted opportunity and a rather ignorant design decision from Relic, from my point of view.

Finally, the argument of ''cartoony'' graphics aging better is utter bollocks to me. People still play old games for the sake of nostalgia and good gameplay. Even if they literally hurt their eyes because of low resolutions and the lack of AAs or filters. Dawn of War I is still played by a small community, the modding community primarily, and the same goes for DOW II. I think they literally thought it convenient to ''copy'' the MOBA artstyle just for the sake of success and user-friendliness and ''hopping on the bandwagon''. I understand that Relic is a company that needs to make profits, but sacrificing the identity of a well-established universe to do it, is probably a bad idea.

My last hope is the gameplay, and really only the gameplay. The balance of all the DOW I games has always been a mess, and that is mostly because the players can never be content or just come to terms with themselves. There will always be players complaining about balance, be there 2 or 10 factions. You have a meta, and you shift yourself around it, or you shift the meta yourself by experimenting and perfecting. Nothing else. I just hope that reducing the total faction count by 1 for each subsequent installment in the franchise does not become a trend, for there is much more to it than just Space Marines, Orks and Eldar. Although, I do not necessarily mind it, since I do enjoy these factions. It just feels like Relic are letting the fans of the less ''popular'' races such as the Necrons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, or Dark Eldar etc. down.

Anyway, I rest my case. If they polish the game, as I really doubt we will see some major overhaul to the engine or graphics because of $$, pre-alpha or not, I might give it a shot in the future, but for now, after 6-7~ years of waiting, all I can say is that my first impression is one of unmitigating despondency, with the game looking almost more like a comical relief, instead of a grimdark and depressing game of war.
Last edited by Odysseus on Wed 15 Jun, 2016 2:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 12:31 am

Odysseus wrote:Let alone all the shenanigans concerning the lore. It is exactly the lore that has brought Warhammer 40k where it is now. Yes, gameplay is more important than lore in practice, but the lore should shape the design, and the most marginal amount of concessions should really be made when it comes to animating the atmosphere of the game.


I've always wanted to say exactly this but never found the right opportunity to do so. Totally spot on. Not sure how certain people can't wrap their heads around this.

Odysseus wrote:Generally, I think a lot of people are forgetting that Warhammer 40k, even though it is a sci-fi universe with aliens, mutans, daemons being present,


Hmm, I've always regarded the 40K universe as being fantasy with a thick outer coating of sci-fi (In a true sci-fi you wouldn't have technologically advanced armies fighting land wars with the tactics of WW1/WW2). Maybe a soft sci-fi is the right term... it doesn't detract from your point that once you have one remotely non-realistic element in your universe, suddenly you shouldn't bother with any kind of realism or grounding. That kind of thinking is how you get these unbelievable acid trip-like universes that no one can feel immersed in.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Cyris » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 1:50 am

Thanks a ton for posting this Max!

I must come from a different planet from a lot of you, I really like what I see. This is what comes from getting old I guess, losing touch :(

There are a million things that Relic could flub on this, but that's always the case, for every game. So far, I'm 99% sold on what they have chosen to show off. No matter how much QQ or Relic hate I hear here, they sold me three games in one with DoW2 (Campaigns, Last Stand and Multiplayer) and ELITE picked up the torch and ran with it.

I don't really want to try to convince anyone of anything, just to stand and be counted. DoW3 looks awesome so far.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Forestradio » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 2:16 am

Good post from Odysseus.

Yes I do expect some sort of realism/consistency within the established rules/background of a universe. About people being blow into bits, I do think that is realistic, certainly within multiple fantasy universes, and even in real life. I read something a while ago that tank crews described enemies who were hit with the tank's main gun as being "pink misted." I've never seen this in person and hope I never do, but I would imagine that it involves the target being turned into pink mist/blown into bits. Seems plausible to me.

However, as far as I'm aware, physics applies in the 40k universe. I'm not a physicist, but I know Newton's second law: F=ma, where F is a force in Newtons, m is a mass in kilograms, and a is an acceleration in m/s^2 (assume a relatively constant mass and acceleration here). To jump, a person must overcome the downward gravitational force of the planet/moon, which is dependent the person's mass. So if Angelos' mass increases, then it become harder to jump. Perhaps the planet they are on has an extremely low density and thus the gravitational field is low, I don't know. Though then the Imperial Knight should also be able to jump around like a giant bunny rabbit.

(unrelated tangent: I hope they make the Knight pilot a cool character, on par with angelos/gorgutz/eliphas)

Every single mention of Terminator armor in lore, ingame, everywhere mentions that it makes the marine inside slower and less agile. Even in the few 30k novels I've read, where I believe terminator armor was more advanced.

Furthermore, I don't think that an agile Terminator Armor suits it from a gameplay perspective either. They are supposed to be very slow, very durable troops, are they not? If warp spiders appear in the game without the ability to teleport, I'll be disappointed too.

Everyone here is working off the same preconceptions as far as I know, unless Relic hired someone on this forum, which I would consider extremely unlikely since I'm pretty sure they only hire Canadians. We all saw the same trailer, read the same articles, looked at the same screenshots, watched the same gameplay. And no, I don't like it so far. I would like for dow3 to be a great game, I would like to have fun playing it both single and multiplayer. I will have to reserve proper judgement until some multiplayer footage gets released. And also I want to see some orks.

Until then, my opinion has not changed from my first post in this thread. It's a rather crude opinion, but accurately conveys how I feel about dow3 so far:
Forestradio wrote:it looks like someone took a shit, painted it metallic colors, and then threw it into a blender
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Psycho » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 3:11 am

The animation bits also apply to the Imerial Knight, as the animations feel like they have no weight behind them, that the model is as light as a feather. In the gameplay video, as soon as the knight stands up from landing, it waves its arms about as if it was cocking its guns for no apparent reason, yet it looked as if the arms didn't weigh a bit even though they're as big as Gabriel Angelos in height alone, to say nothing of width. It's double as alarming considering that they seemed to have weight in what little was shown in the trailer where one got chopped in half and another rammed a wraithknight.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 3:50 am

Here is a longer video in english, that was posted in the DOW forums. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Wn7YUGaWI

One of the guys talking actually mentioned that Relic was aiming for the simple, bright-coloured MOBA feel as opposed to "photo-realism" :/

I notice the same things as I did with the other videos
-The hero unit is easily 5x larger in scale than other soldiers who should be the same size as him (Typical of Blizzard games as far back as WC3)
-Every active ability is indicated with a colourful, cartoonish indicator (and there seems to be no shortage of these abilities either)
-So many of the engagements in this trailer were decided by point-and-click insta-gib abilities, rather than basic unit stats
-The knockback is way over the top, possibly even worse than in the original DOW, where it was an absolute menace

The last one is what really bugs me - I've hated bouncy-castle knockback since the days of DOWI, so I'm glad other people are speaking up about it now.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby appiah4 » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 7:49 am

There are a million things wrong with this trailer and game but.. This is all:

Image

Well not all, there's also this:

Image
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 10:18 am

Odysseus wrote:I appreciate Relic's sentiment of trying to change things up, and I do enjoy MOBAs, but the artstyle is just a major turnoff, especially for DoW. It has already been said numerous times that the cartoony artstyle kills all the grittyness of the universe, which it is so loved for. For a first impression, during those trailers and gameplay vids, all I could think was: Bloody hell my eyes, what have they done to my gothic and thoroughly depressing universe? As I would like to say, I think for a franchise and a special universe such as Warhammer 40k, the artstyle is more than just ''visuals'' or pretty effects. It makes you feel exactly what the designer of Relic said in that article; up close and personal with your troops, it makes the universe come alive. Why they decided to steer away from this is beyond me. I thought they would combine an improved artstyle reminiscent of DoW II with large scale battles similar to DoW I but then even bigger. The more I think about this specifically, the more I feel like it was Relic not having enough funds to upgrade the engine accordingly. Furthermore, publicly stating, in the year of 2016, that you wish to sacrifice graphics for larger battles is a pretty pathetic argument, in my opinion, especially with all the means developers have at their disposal these days. I am not surprised that many die hard fans refuse to swallow it.

Let alone all the shenanigans concerning the lore. It is exactly the lore that has brought Warhammer 40k where it is now. Yes, gameplay is more important than lore in practice, but the lore should shape the design, and the most marginal amount of concessions should really be made when it comes to animating the atmosphere of the game. As Forest and Riku said, putting on suits that weigh a bloody ton and then defying the laws of gravity is revulsing and quite the disrespect towards the lore to say the least. Moreover, I fail to see how Terminators being slow, cumbersome and tanky interferes with gameplay. It's exactly what they are supposed to be. They soak up fire and retaliate in heavy slug fests.

Generally, I think a lot of people are forgetting that Warhammer 40k, even though it is a sci-fi universe with aliens, mutants, daemons being present, it does take itself quite seriously. Many authors have spent years of their time to pay attention to the little details that make 40K what 40k is. To reiterate: The universe gives itself more than enough room to play around with, but it never takes off and gets lost in the clouds somewhere by defying the laws of gravity or psychic powers without proper explanation. Just look up the amount of detail Warhammer 40k gives on the Space Marine Biological composition, or the classification system of planets in the imperium. I think it is safe to say that it does try to reach a somewhat real and gritty approach in the setting itself. There are so many details, and sacrificing these details is really just a wasted opportunity and a rather ignorant design decision from Relic, from my point of view.

I appreciate this well-thought out post, and I'm going to focus on the bits I'm best-equipped to discuss as both a 40k fan (like a lot of us here) and a software developer.

1. Every game is always about sacrificing something for something else. Just because we're in 2016, it doesn't mean that gamers' machines are all-powerful, nor does it mean that graphics engines can functionally scale in a limitless manner. On a tangent, it's a large part of why AI development in video games is so immature / rooted in smoke and mirrors. Professional AI research and development takes supercomputers and the work of various PhD-equipped experts a number of months to even analyse, nevermind implement. We're not in an idealist future, we're still bound to the constraints of modern technology.

Additionally, Relic will have a baseline to target with hardware expectations and the game will have to run on that level of hardware. So it's not just a matter of simple software limitations in building the engine, it's real-world limitations with regards to the machines this game will have to run on. And while you can scale down graphics, you can't scale down scale. The scale of the game has to be identical for everyone playing it, assuming they meet the minimum required specifications.

Fans regularly don't accept (or willingly accept) a lot of things that don't necessarily make sense, but this isn't one of them. I say this as a longtime fan of various franchises that in recent years I've come to question more. Software development is incredibly misunderstood by the general gaming populace, and I can state confidently that if a team of engine and graphics programmers have given a reason, that reason is more accurate than any reason the public at large could offer.

2. This kinda overlaps with 3 a bit, but hopefully I'll make a decent point here. Gameplay is more important than the lore, but the lore should shape the design. Absolutely. A single Terminator-Captain performing heroic jumps is not breaking the lore by itself to the point where the lore is irrelevant. It's a single trangression, and one of subjective impact at that (as in, folks will disagree as to how severe it is). And that's fine. Everyone has different limits for what they find to break immersion. But that doesn't make the leap animations in of themselves in violation of design principles (which we're not privy to). The 40k universe routinely breaks gravity in any number of ways that I don't really have time to list. But as an easy one they have gravitic weaponry which by our currently understanding of gravity and physics is relatively impossible.

Also, as a lore-based point, the suits don't actually weight a ton to the bearer. Regular Power Armour lets Marines jump further and run faster than they would be able to without it (even considering their physical enhancements that also don't make biological sense). Terminator Armour further augments strength and endurance, the only caveat is it restricts the user's movements. Which yes, you're complaining about here, which is fair. But not only is Angelos wearing some kind of Cataphactii-Terminator-meld, it's stated in the lore that master-crafted armour weighs nowhere near as much as standard issue (Marneus Calgar, for example, wears an incredibly suit of Artificer Armour that lets him move with the ease of a regular Marine).

3. 40k in recent years has taken itself more seriously than it used to. It never actually used to do this, for anybody that remembers 2nd Edition or even further back into the Rogue Trader days (I don't know the latter personally but I know the rules and the lore from that time). GW's biology does not follow our understood rules for biology, and most of their physics defies everything we understand about the laws of physics. To this day 40k has functioning plasma weaponry that functions somehow, and on top of that we have incredibly lazy justifications for how Necron weapons work (the lore is written from the point of view of a Mechanicus Magos simply exclaiming that their weapons are beyond mortal comprehension. Bit convenient, eh).

There are a lot of people that even miss the old days where 40k didn't take itself so seriously. Plenty of people like the Orks alone for that reason. 40k isn't universally grimdark in how it is portrayed, and perhaps people forget that.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 12:41 pm

Grav weapons are part of the sci-fi / fantasy category. They work because it's fictional. Same with plasma and all your other "examples".
They should still follow the pre-set common rules though. Like terminator armour not being able to somersault unless in low gravity environments or something. Artificer armour is also the same size as standard Space Marine armour It's not terminator armour ...
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 12:59 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Grav weapons are part of the sci-fi / fantasy category. They work because it's fictional. Same with plasma and all your other "examples".
They should still follow the pre-set common rules though. Like terminator armour not being able to somersault unless in low gravity environments or something. Artificer armour is also the same size as standard Space Marine armour It's not terminator armour ...

You can't say X is explainable because it's fictional, but Y isn't because it needs to be realistic. Sorry :/

You are right on Artificer Armour though; Marneus was also a bad example because I'd forgotten he could swap between his custom Terminator plate and regular Artificer Armour.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 1:11 pm

Gorb wrote:You can't say X is explainable because it's fictional, but Y isn't because it needs to be realistic. Sorry :/
Yes you can... That's exactly what a good sci-fi is. Otherwise it's just the real world -.-
Plasma works because it's the future a,nd sci-fi. Gravity is still in effect, especially when already stated many times how terminator armour performs and acts.
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 1:25 pm

There's a differing account for how Terminator Armour works for every Black Library novel it appears in. Sometimes bolter fire gets through it, sometimes bolter fire bounces off of it. Sometimes it resists plasma fire, sometimes plasma spears a hole through it like butter.

And I disagree on what you think makes good science fiction. There are two main types of science fiction, "soft" sci-fi and "hard" sci-fi. Hard sci-fi is where they try to explain everything in realistic physical terms. 40k is not hard sci-fi. It tries to be at times, but it doesn't make sense and generally fails. It makes much more sense to accept 40k as "soft" sci-fi, which is basically where "stuff just works because they say so". It allows for a more enjoyable setting at the cost of realism, to cater to a different type of reader.

If you accept plasma weapon and gravitics as working just because they're physical, then you have to accept the same universe (approved by Games Workshop as DoW III will be) allowing for jumping Terminators. Because it's soft sci-fi. It it were more "realistic" sci-fi then sure, Terminators probably wouldn't be able to jump (if we had access to the weight involved, stress on and durability of the servo motors, and the power output of the internal power plant that powers the armour, to calculate it as per modern physics). But neither would grav weapons or plasma fire. Not for the explanations Games Workshop has given us. Their explanations aren't good enough to match hard sci-fi.

You kinda have to be consistent. That's what good sci-fi is. You don't mix and match.
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Dark Riku
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 1:32 pm

It all depends on where the bolter/plasma hit and if they are main characters or not :)

I have to accept jack shit. Terminators can't make somersaults.
Gorbles
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 1:39 pm

* shrugs *

Fair enough, but that's an opinion, not a fact. Obviously, I disagree, haha.
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appiah4
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby appiah4 » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 1:59 pm

Gorb wrote:Fans regularly don't accept (or willingly accept) a lot of things that don't necessarily make sense, but this isn't one of them. I say this as a longtime fan of various franchises that in recent years I've come to question more. Software development is incredibly misunderstood by the general gaming populace, and I can state confidently that if a team of engine and graphics programmers have given a reason, that reason is more accurate than any reason the public at large could offer.


AAA gaming developers and publishers have made a habit of lying about the reasons behind design decisions. It's almost always corporate greed. Let me give you a few famous examples off the top of my head when developers blatantly and famously lied in the last few years:

  • Sim City needing online for the power of the cloud
  • Watchdogs being downgraded for artistic decisions
  • Everything Molyneux said ever, which included crowdfunding a game, giving the funders half a game and then selling the full version on the market for extra money
  • All the lies Bungie told about what would be in Destiny and the game ending up being a soulless husk of what was promised, because reasons

And I won't even go into the platform holders' hardware lies and developers' bullshit claims about graphics fidelity developers make..

This time around it's about catering to the MOBA crowd but trying to not alienate RTS fans, and it's just painfully obvious. The whole scale and common denominator bullshit is just that, bullshit. This is a PC game, you can scale your graphics settings down to as low a denominator as you want. You don't need to have this colorful shitshow to do that. No, I just ain't buying none of that shit. They can just man up and admit it. They wanted to make a colorful game full of MOBA-ish eccentric hero abilities. They did it. Now they are ashamed of it. They can do that without my money.
ALWAYS ANGRY!! ALL THE TIME!!
Gorbles
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 2:12 pm

You not believing them does not mean they were lying about it. You have a point about Watch_Dogs I think, I remember following that quite closely. But the rest is the usual gamers thinking they know how to make games better than the people actually making the games. This isn't an appeal to authority, this is simply me knowing the claims gamers come out with and how wrong they are.

Sim City did need the power of the cloud; the modders that made the game available offline didn't really point out how bad the game was offline. It crashed, a lot. There were weird issues with computation. And so on, and so forth. It took Maxis a further year of optimisations and logic work to get it working offline properly. Which they delivered.

Molyneux gets too much flak for things that are the responsibility of a full team.

Destiny also gets unfairly slammed. People built up unrealistic expectations, and while I'm sure Bungie's marketing played a part in that, blame also falls on consumers for falsely hyping the game up (to themselves). There was a whole thing about the PC platform when they never actually promised one at launch (or ever, in fact). They simply said they'd look at it, and people took this As A Sign. I'm sure there's plenty of valid criticism of Destiny, but that's not saying stuff doesn't get overblown.

It's the same here. People say "Blizzard" and latch onto it like it means something. Saying the game looks like "Blizzard games" means absolutely nothing. That's like saying Torchlight (an RPG made by former Diablo devs) looks like "Blizzard" even though Torchlight and Diablo have very different art directions. People keep spamming the word "MOBA" when not all MOBA games look the same.

Feel free to exercise your right to spend. I absolutely encourage that. But when you make assumptions, they're going to get called out.
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Ar-Aamon
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Ar-Aamon » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 3:57 pm

Gorb wrote:* shrugs *

Fair enough, but that's an opinion, not a fact. Obviously, I disagree, haha.


Au con­t­raire, it's a fact. Terminators don't jump15 meters in air an make a frontflip.
Gorbles
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Re: First ingame video (it's in German though)

Postby Gorbles » Wed 15 Jun, 2016 4:18 pm

Ar-Aamon wrote:
Gorb wrote:* shrugs *

Fair enough, but that's an opinion, not a fact. Obviously, I disagree, haha.

Au con­t­raire, it's a fact. Terminators don't jump15 meters in air an make a frontflip.

I've been over this quite a lot but given that Terminators are fictional things made up by Games Workshop I don't think we can call their physical properties factual.

Nor their physical properties as defined in DoW III (approved by Games Workshop) as unrealistic. Because it isn't a fact. It's all made-up. It's a work of fiction.

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