DOW3 Open Beta Tournament 1v1

[MaxPower]

...many are fed up by people who completely disregard their views as needless or whining. [...] I will repeat: trying to shut up valid concerns, criticism and nay-sayers is counter-productive, Max. You are simply not paying attention to what these people are actually saying.

First of all I did disregard his Tex's view as needless and/or whining, purley because he didn't mention as to why he thinks DoW 3 is bad compared to Starcraft 2 or DoW 2.

Please point me to the vaild concerns/criticism in Tex's post, all i can find is:

A. Personal opinion without any arguments to back up his opinion
B. Comparing DoW 3 to Starcraft 2 and DoW 2, without mentioning why he thinks the latter are better than DoW 3
C. A call to boycott the "lame duck sham of a cash grab", now why does he think its a "lame duck sham of a cash grab"?

These are not valid concerns, because he doesnt back them up with anything like at all. There is no conversation to be had, if he backs them up one could start a conversation from there, but right now it's just worthless drivel.

Btw. I only quoted his "We should all be boycotting this lame duck sham of a cash grab.", because I really don't get what he would gain from this? Don't buy the game if you don't like it and move on, what's the point of trying to ruin "everyone else's fun because you didn't get the game you wanted"?

The thing is, he is totally entitled to his opinion, but I'm also entitled to my opinion that his post was just a waste of time, because no actual criticism was brought forth.

It' bascially boils down to this:

[Oddnerd]

Instead of saying "ok" on the note it should instead have a bunch of personal attacks and passive aggressive shittiness. That would make the comic more accurate.

[GuruSkippy]

I'd like to know what Tex doesn't like in the game.
While not perfect, I think it's way better than DOW2, and also DOW1. Way more skill demanding (IMO), but not too much like SC2 can be for example.

[Toilailee]

Instead of saying "ok" on the note it should instead have a bunch of personal attacks and passive aggressive shittiness. That would make the comic more accurate.

Yea, but you mean from the ”critic’s” side.




I’m honestly really disappointed in the community. From the very first sneak peeks of gameplay (if not since the theatrical trailer that had nothing to do with gameplay) that we got people have been in outrage as if DoW3 killed everyone’s collective favorite puppy. I honestly don’t understand what it is that offended 40k fans so much, and I’m inclined to believe that it just became fashionable to hate on DoW3 (look up new coke case).

At least 98% of all negative comments I have read are nothing close to “constructive criticism” and purely are depreciative and aggressive one liners (aka hating). And then people like me who dare say one word in defense of DoW3 get pounced on by mob of angry and aggressive people, who then on top of things immediately start exhibiting some sort of victim complex claiming that they’re not allowed to criticize anything.

So yea, that passive aggressiveness at least from me personally is 100% responding in kind.


Now to the main point; you’re allowed to dislike or hate it if that’s how you feel, I totally understand that it’s not for everyone. But so what? Why is every forum, twitch chat and youtube video comment section about DoW3 full of people bitching their hearts out and ruining it for people who actually like it? And then telling these people to not buy it and to move on somehow constitutes as a dire insult on them.
I didn’t like CoH, it was an instant turn off for me and some things really got on my nerves due to the WW2 theme. So I moved on and only told my opinion to people who actually asked me. That’s the main difference between you and me in this case and the reason why I can’t understand you.


Disclaimer:
So far I personally prefer DoW2 to DoW3, but I’m also interested in Relic’s vision here and enjoying it so far.

The main points that the “haters” usually bring up are:
1. “Cartoony and not grimdark enough graphics”
Basic artstyle is pretty consistent with previous DoW games in my mind, but I don’t personally care much either way since it has nothing to do with gameplay.

2. “It’s a moba”
I’m not a fan of the turret but other than that the moba elements haven’t bothered me whatsoever.

3. “No cover”
I agree with that point in that I’d rather have old cover system, but I also acknowledge that it wouldn’t work nearly as well with DoW3.

4. “Gabe jumping like Mario in terminator armor”
Yes it’s a bit silly but again it’s aesthetics and I personally don’t care much. I’m much more annoyed by the voice actor change.

5. “No retreat”
This comes mostly from DoW2 players obviously and the mechanic worked well in DoW2 but it wouldn’t make nearly as much sense in DoW3 and the question of whether always having a “get out of jail free –card” is good game design is debatable.

6. “No sync kills”
Yeah… I despise sync kills and I’m glad they’re gone.

7. “Only 3 races”
I’m frankly glad that Relic took this path and actually focused on honing the balance and gameplay rather than making a clusterfuck of things. I haven’t run into a single bug or major balance issue so far and the game feels significantly more polished at launch than DoW2 did.


Then come the random made up complaints that don’t make any sense to begin with, like:
1. “This game has nothing to do with strategy”
If so then neither do DoW1 or DoW2, so then why is it a big deal?

2. “There’s no unit preservation in this game”

3. “No dynamic movement”
I still don’t know what was meant with this exactly.

So in essence none of these points particularly bother me and imo every single one of them is blown waaaayyy out of proportion. I have yet to have a discussion with any DoW3 critic where these “valid concerns” are brought up in a calm and rational manner that actually warrants listening to. They usually come forth in the tone that Tex used, which I concider far more fitting of the description of “aggressive shittiness” than a response of “don’t buy it and move on”. Sorry Tex, I respect you personally and have never had a problem with you but this is not the kind of conduct I’d expect from you.
Not that I particularly even want to have that discussion at this point anymore since we’d likely just end up wasting each other’s time and I’d much rather play the game with people who actually enjoy it, and I’ve now written this wall to copy paste to people in the future when need be. I’ve said all I have to say, feel free to disagree and flame me.

[Shroom]

I'm mostly disappointed in weapon sounds and voice acting. Everything goes pew pew, they got rid of the original (best) Angelos voice actor, and that Deathwatch Space Wolf really needs to shut up. Not a big fan of the animations either, the dreadnaught is particularly hilarious.

[Impregnable]

More likely they just don't want to transfer over from DOW1 and DOW2. What they probably wanted was graphically upgraded version of either DOW1 or DOW2 with little changes. DOW3 is neithter so they are all rage.

Well, Relic is very good at saying fuk off if you don't like it to fans of previous iteration of a franchise but they don't know how to do it strategically unfortunately. DOW3 can never be reconciled with DOW2 but can easily be done with DOW1. Then, what you do?

Don't make silly Gabe jumping animations, don't introduce bubble shield and keep up DOW1 style cover, allow squads to reinforce on the field without buildings like in DOW1, introduce both annihilation and dow1 style vp control mode along side current nexus one. If this happened, DOW1 fandom will have nothing against DOW3. With their support crush DOW2 whiners easily without all these fuss. Give them a hint that if DOW3 is well sold, DOW4 will be similar to DOW2 and fracture their opinion and crush insolent radicals with combined arms of DOW1 and new comers.

In short, relic if you are gonna be an asshole, be a strategic asshole.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Disclaimer:
So far I personally prefer DoW2 to DoW3, but I’m also interested in Relic’s vision here and enjoying it so far.

Disclaimer: We are ALL interested in Relics vision but we think that it is heavily flawed at the moment.

1. “Cartoony and not grimdark enough graphics”
Basic artstyle is pretty consistent with previous DoW games in my mind, but I don’t personally care much either way since it has nothing to do with gameplay.

We can at least agree on that it has nothing to do with gameplay. I will say however that in the year 2017, considering what a visual masterpiece DoW2 was, I expected more. I simply do not get the same immersive feeling when seeing the models or hearing the sounds or voice acting. It is lacking and a downgrade. It is not a total deal-breaker though.

2. “It’s a moba”
I’m not a fan of the turret but other than that the moba elements haven’t bothered me whatsoever.

It's not only the turret that is screaming MOBA but your army basically being reduced to creeps as soon as the first heroes arrive on the field. I will go into more detail about this further down the list.

3. “No cover”
I agree with that point in that I’d rather have old cover system, but I also acknowledge that it wouldn’t work nearly as well with DoW3.

I think we can all agree that the current implementation of their cover system is FAR behind what DoW1 and 2 offer.

4. “Gabe jumping like Mario in terminator armor”
Yes it’s a bit silly but again it’s aesthetics and I personally don’t care much. I’m much more annoyed by the voice actor change.

I actually don't care and I do understand that Gabe needs a visual indicator for this attack to provide a measure of "counterability". I am not a lore whore so I don't really care apart from that it looks stupid.

5. “No retreat”
This comes mostly from DoW2 players obviously and the mechanic worked well in DoW2 but it wouldn’t make nearly as much sense in DoW3 and the question of whether always having a “get out of jail free –card” is good game design is debatable.

In a game that has always been about unit-preservation this is really bothering me because as it is right now it's simply impossible. You have stuff everywhere that simply reduce your basic army (even with hp upgrades and all) to cannon-fodder that gets one-shotted. I am talking Warboss swirling attack, Weirdboy ability, Whirlwind attacks (I can't even begin to describe how dumb this is). Explain to me how you preserve your units in such a game. The issue of retreat vs no retreat is not really complicated. As a DoW2 veteran you surely know about the importance of when to retreat and when not to and the strategic implications of that decision. Considering the scale of DoW 3 armies I can see why it would be difficult to copy-paste the idea from DoW 2 but as it stands right now it's non-sensical.

6. “No sync kills”
Yeah… I despise sync kills and I’m glad they’re gone.

Agreed. Unneccesary eye-candy that introduces RNG.

7. “Only 3 races”
I’m frankly glad that Relic took this path and actually focused on honing the balance and gameplay rather than making a clusterfuck of things. I haven’t run into a single bug or major balance issue so far and the game feels significantly more polished at launch than DoW2 did.

Agreed on Relic wanting to balance 3 factions first before adding more. Completely disagree on balance issues. I already mentioned a few. I did not have ample time completely explore every faction but I am sure that more things will come up. Just look at the 1v1 tournament. To be fair, one can not expect a perfectly balanced game but Snipers that can kill Listening Posts is a no-brainer. Relic should have more expertise by now.

We did not even touch the following issues: economy + escalation phases, damage types (5 ASM taking down the main turret in 3s because reasons), armor types (how can normal dmg kill vehicles if you just get enough of it? wtf).

Relic simply wanted to much at the same time. Appeal to MOBA players but also potentially attract SC players and get all of them in the same boat with the DoW1 and DoW2 community. The MOBA move was just totally unneccessary. Relic had such a good game-mode going for them which made the game indeed more dynamic because you can't just turtle and wait for late-game stuff. You have to engage at all stages of the game and all over the map, which is why many percieve the flow of the game to be far better in their previous games. How you dismiss this as a "random made-up complaint" is beyond me.

[Rostam]

More likely they just don't want to transfer over from DOW1 and DOW2. What they probably wanted was graphically upgraded version of either DOW1 or DOW2 with little changes. DOW3 is neithter so they are all rage.

Well, Relic is very good at saying fuk off if you don't like it to fans of previous iteration of a franchise but they don't know how to do it strategically unfortunately. DOW3 can never be reconciled with DOW2 but can easily be done with DOW1. Then, what you do?

Don't make silly Gabe jumping animations, don't introduce bubble shield and keep up DOW1 style cover, allow squads to reinforce on the field without buildings like in DOW1, introduce both annihilation and dow1 style vp control mode along side current nexus one. If this happened, DOW1 fandom will have nothing against DOW3. With their support crush DOW2 whiners easily without all these fuss. Give them a hint that if DOW3 is well sold, DOW4 will be similar to DOW2 and fracture their opinion and crush insolent radicals with combined arms of DOW1 and new comers.

In short, relic if you are gonna be an asshole, be a strategic asshole.

well said indeed

[Swift]

2. “It’s a moba”
I’m not a fan of the turret but other than that the moba elements haven’t bothered me whatsoever.

It's not only the turret that is screaming MOBA but your army basically being reduced to creeps as soon as the first heroes arrive on the field. I will go into more detail about this further down the list.

But it's not a moba in any way. It's more like a simplified version of annihilation with base turrets made much bigger and beefier, and with one central node to defend. It definitely looks like a moba at first glance, and indeed it is likely inspired by them, but the game does not play like a moba in the slightest even with this mode in place. In this case Relic rather unfortunately made it look like a moba when in actual fact the way games work themselves out is not moba-like at all.

Units are not reduced to creeps when elites and heroes arrive, I'm not sure where this comes from but it's just not correct. The role of elites and regular units differ, and whilst the balance between the two is really skewed in the favour of elites at the moment, that's not to say that your army is obsolete. I know that everyone who I played the closed beta with struggled initially with the concept of large armies, because it is so ingrained in us that we don't use armies of that scale, and indeed, elites were absolutely crushing entire armies until people realise that to stay on top they actually needed to be spending their money and filling their pop cap. In essence, individual squads don't matter anymore, but that doesn't mean they're fodder or can't be used tactically, you just have to see them as something fragile, but a precise instrument when used correctly. I've waffled here, I'll explain better down below.

3. “No cover”
I agree with that point in that I’d rather have old cover system, but I also acknowledge that it wouldn’t work nearly as well with DoW3.

I think we can all agree that the current implementation of their cover system is FAR behind what DoW1 and 2 offer.

The cover mechanics are they are in DoW III are gay as. Definitely not something I relish at all, it really needs changing. That said, it's not uncounterable, it's just really a very strange case of black and white: ranged units can't shoot into them or enter, but melee ones can, and ranged units inside them cannot shoot at enemies inside their cover. I don't like it, but having played what I have of the betas I've worked out it's not as simple as "put devastator here, wait, shoot, win".

5. “No retreat”
This comes mostly from DoW2 players obviously and the mechanic worked well in DoW2 but it wouldn’t make nearly as much sense in DoW3 and the question of whether always having a “get out of jail free –card” is good game design is debatable.

In a game that has always been about unit-preservation this is really bothering me because as it is right now it's simply impossible. You have stuff everywhere that simply reduce your basic army (even with hp upgrades and all) to cannon-fodder that gets one-shotted. I am talking Warboss swirling attack, Weirdboy ability, Whirlwind attacks (I can't even begin to describe how dumb this is). Explain to me how you preserve your units in such a game. The issue of retreat vs no retreat is not really complicated. As a DoW2 veteran you surely know about the importance of when to retreat and when not to and the strategic implications of that decision. Considering the scale of DoW 3 armies I can see why it would be difficult to copy-paste the idea from DoW 2 but as it stands right now it's non-sensical.

Relic simply wanted to much at the same time. Appeal to MOBA players but also potentially attract SC players and get all of them in the same boat with the DoW1 and DoW2 community. The MOBA move was just totally unneccessary. Relic had such a good game-mode going for them which made the game indeed more dynamic because you can't just turtle and wait for late-game stuff. You have to engage at all stages of the game and all over the map, which is why many percieve the flow of the game to be far better in their previous games. How you dismiss this as a "random made-up complaint" is beyond me.

I don't actually want to say this, Noobus, because it'll come across as insulting, but hear me out. This in my view, sounds like an L2P issue, because if you believe their is no unit preservation/it's not important, I can see why the game is so distasteful. Indeed, as it stands 90% of the playerbase are complete morons who don't know a thing about the game, and you can get away with sloppiness, but I can guarantee you that if you don't have unit preservation, you will not win against anyone who understands they need it. The game is not nearly as passive as it appears to be, a lot of it is decided by the early game and your ability to pressure an opponent. Let's take 1v1 for example; whilst I onyl played about 20 1v1s in the open beta as opposed toa lot more in the closed one, I lost roughly four of these games and won sixteen. Fifteen of these sixteen games were over before the ten minute mark because I kept my units alive and played aggressively to destroy theirs. Had they done the same, they'd have given me a much tougher game like my sixteenth win which went for a whole hour because neither of us could effectively steamroll the other. Now, this is not to say your point is without merit, after about half an hour the lines begin to blur and unit preservation is less important since you can replace things easier, but I've lost games I should have won past the 30 minute mark because I got cocky and threw them away.

As for DoW III not having you "Engage at all stages of the game and all over the map", that's just bullshit made up out of a lack of understanding

Now, I can't make you like DoW III and I can't make you agree with me, but I feel like there's a lot of ignoance surrounding the game due to misinformation and the lack of a skilled pool of players. I can guarantee in the coming months this will change, already certain people are excelling and when casts begin to emerge of these games a number of people will have a change of heart. I HATED DoW II at launch - it wasn't DoW I, it was some tiny little pretender to the throne and I forgot about it for four years, until I found Indrid's videos and realised there was merit and there was skill.

[Atlas]

You know what this sounds like?

PODCAST TIME!

How about if we just got 2 critics like Tex and Ace with 2 supporters like Toil and Vindi and just let them talk it out for like 90 minutes?

[Oddnerd]

I'd watch/listen the shit out of that.

[Shroom]

I'd watch/listen the shit out of that.

yea you and the other 20 members of this community

[Psycho]

I thought it was 15

[SuperMariangelos]

"How dare you tell me what to do/think/feel. But let me tell you what to do/think/feel..."
- Everyone on both sides of the discussion

[MaxPower]

"How dare you tell me what to do/think/feel. But let me tell you what to do/think/feel..."
- Everyone on both sides of the discussion

Not sure if that comment was made in jest, but you know if you want to start a conversation because you don't like something you better explain why it is that you don't like aforementioned something. Otherwise there is no conversation to be had, am I right?