Dark Eldar as a new race? Suggestion thread

[Mngwa]

Nice to see all these suggestions! ^^

Sacrificing own units is indeed an interesting idea. I would think a wargear for the archon would be good for that.

In addition, if it indeed will be possible to have three commanders for each race (which I heard about a while ago from this thread), what other ones would you like as commanders?

The obvious answers are the Succubus and perhaps the Haemonculus Ancient. Any wargear or other special abilities they could have? I am half wondering what it would look like to have the haemonculus bashing through cover like other heavy-weight commanders, though it wouldn't be too DEldarly I guess .
I had thought of the idea of Bloodbrides as an upgrade to wyches, functioning like the sternguard/vanguard, but it could work perfectly as a global ability of the Succubus as well.


And as far as glass cannon goes, Dark Eldar have the crappier armour (mass produced metal, not wraithbone). But it is still noticeable on especially the coven units how they are very survivable and tough.
In the case of wyches, I am hoping for a good representation of their skills on that they would often be more safe in combat (with anything) than in cover being fired at. The additional melee-resistance and high melee skill (the stat-line that determines will they get special attacks/will they be special attacked) could do well for that ^^

EDIT: I have heard an interesting description that Dark Eldar work in TT a little like a combination of Orks and Tau. Throw in the usual eldar-statlines.

[David-CZ]

You guys are really making me want to do some serious Dark Eldar modelling. Hopefully I'll get to it once I have the time. If nothing else it could be used as a skin for Eldar.

There is so much amazing stuff done by beckjann on his web http://beckjann.deviantart.com/. I'd definitely draw inspiration from there.

[Torpid]

In the case of wyches, I am hoping for a good representation of their skills on that they would often be more safe in combat (with anything) than in cover being fired at. The additional melee-resistance and high melee skill (the stat-line that determines will they get special attacks/will they be special attacked) could do well for that ^^

I remember in DOW1 they did this via making Wyches inflict huge morale damage so that when they get in combat with something it can't really hurt them back, that wouldn't work in DOW2 though as suppression doesn't affect melee combat that much (I know it does somewhat, but not enough in this instance). Rather than giving them superior melee skill which would make them probably a bit too annoying to fight against/with(I already hate the luck involved with using strike squads in melee) they could debuff the melee damage of enemy units they hit and/or inflict a damage over time, making them quite useful as counter-initiation units or for soloing stuff on the peripheries of the map.

Obviously this role would not be suited for a baseline unit, but I'm assuming a wych squad would be akin to purifier's or the new chosen plague marines in their eco costs/timings. Don't really think they need to do any AV potential as I'm seeing them as working like bloodletters but DEed up, meaning less damage, less durability (no worship synergy) but more speed and better capacity to fight alone.



I'm thinking in general DE might be best functioning like chaos combined with orks. The req-heavy nature of chaos (due to all the bleed they will incur since they're fragile, but it would be more so for DE since they lack the HI space marine units) and the great independent functionality of their units (which is better for DE than chaos due to dark eldar speed), while not quite being as good as chaos units without ability use (like orks) and so for that reason they need to commit to their engagements else they'll bleed loads and not achieve much from it (also like orks). That ability usage could then be fueled with red, like orks, or it could work a bit more uniquely, maybe being a fully fledged part of the eco and being an additional cost for units on top of abilities. You could even make it so that your red decreases overtime as you play dark eldar (gotta keep those souls getting sacrificed) and so if you don't watch your red count you could be unable to use your abilities/get out the best units.

DE should be very micro-intensive either way. They're fragile and MUST hit and run, it's not like eldar where you always have the opportunity to hit and run and then take fights when you want. DE shouldn't really be taking big fights at all as they should bleed too much. That's my opinion at least.

[Swift]

I am liking this attention a lot since dark Eldar are easily the best faction. My concern is that having an already squishy army sacrifice its own health to fight seems like they are going to die in the first engagement. Seems really risky, not even risk/reward any more just straight up "If you kill nothing concede". I know there is veterancy of units in DoW II (obviously, be stupid to miss it) but Perhaps due to low health and such and the fact they get power from pain they should gain xp faster through killing things than other faction? Or am I straying into the realms of broken here?

I am not going to suggest any units, it seems really pointless this early on.

"Souls" aka red, could be used like Waaagh! for Orks, in a similar manner but not straight up "Press da buttun and da boyz go yella" but perhaps for other means where red is drained over time to channel some active? Maybe it is too soul intensive but I think it might work as an alternative to energy FOR SOME not all units, as I feel DE really need abilities to survive so an army like GK could be able to stomp them if they relied on energy a lot.

Just some feedback. I expect nothing of this to be considered by our Archon (though if it isn't, a certain Archon might find a gift between his shoulder blades.

On a side note, I think Kilgarn could do some beautiful art for them. Sexy.

[Mngwa]

Beckjann is amazing, and also the source of at least half of all DE-related profile pictures I have seen around in forums/youtube ^^

[Aertes]

In addition, if it indeed will be possible to have three commanders for each race (which I heard about a while ago from this thread), what other ones would you like as commanders?

I think the most obvious and coherent ones are Archon, Haemonculus and Gladiator Champion (witch HQ).

The Archon could be the support hero, with abilities to enhance his army, increase shooting damage and range and such.
Heamonculus could be the defensive hero, with abilities to augment the endurance of the army and debuff the enemy.
The Gladiator Champion could be the offensive hero with abilities to make the army be faster or deal more damage in melee.

[Swift]

In addition, if it indeed will be possible to have three commanders for each race (which I heard about a while ago from this thread), what other ones would you like as commanders?

I think the most obvious and coherent ones are Archon, Haemonculus and Gladiator Champion (witch HQ).

The Archon could be the support hero, with abilities to enhance his army, increase shooting damage and range and such.
Heamonculus could be the defensive hero, with abilities to augment the endurance of the army and debuff the enemy.
The Gladiator Champion could be the offensive hero with abilities to make the army be faster or deal more damage in melee.

But are the most obvious always the best? They are obvious yes, but that doesn't make them A list choices. I for one might argue that the Succubus is too similar to the Archon, so the Archon (who is likely a superior hero) should stay. If we were going with obvious then SM would be Captain, Librarian and Chaplain. But instead the game was tailored to more unique, diverse playstyles, because what they provided did not sit well with SM, so the Librarian was moved to a support role.

I really think that units should not be discussed at all until we can organise a general focus for this army. To blindly lay out the floor of the force when there are no foundations would see it all fall through.

[Aertes]

A Succubus has nothing to do with an Archon. The archon have access to very esoteric gear, and the succubus is a pure melee brawler. Moreover, the Archon could have a global to get Incubus unit (anti heavy infantry melee), or even retinue, while the succubus could have Sisters of Blood (anti mob melee).

[Swift]

Must I really remind you of what I said? You have a tendency to write "Well we need new unit because, he needs a buff and new unit x would be cool because tt."

Why can you not accept this? You simply cannot create a balanced faction without exploring the most fundamental aspects of it's mechanics. The entire army revolves around these mechanics, they must fit the entire structure, used to set up the builds, the playstyles, the micro, new factions must be exploited for weakness, utility, potential strength worked over a thousand times before they can leave the drawing board and be tested in game.

Mechanics are what bind factions together. If there were no faction unique mechanics, where would the factions head? Without the fast and furious guidelines set for Eldar, you would have Striking scorpians, very cool, but a sneaky infiltrator squad for tying up? Isn't that like infiltrated banshees? Where are we going with this? They have heavy armour, yet infiltrate and tie up well. Hmm, should have thought that through. We have Warp Spiders, so maybe we need Swooping Hawks? Yes, they fly, they shoot, they have Haywire grenades. But is that not the same as Warp Spiders? Is that not worse? They don't teleport, which for Eldar fits their hit and run style so well, they fulfill the same combat rolls as Warp Spiders.

Units are built around a faction's mechanics, they respond to the way the faction works by being engineered to respond in a way that fills a weakness. Orks have few hard suppression counters, so they have Stikkbommas, a non Codex squad implemented because they fit the roll, not because TT decrees they exist. As far as TT goes, they do not, but balance and mechanics required that they do.

As a DE fan I would love to suggest units for the faction, but we don't even know how far we can push this whole "Hit and run" thing yet, we have no idea how much to differentiate them from Eldar and how much they would contribute to a whole new experience.

Do not suggest new units when you cannot possibly understand the nature of balancing them. I cannot do it, I certainly think that you are unable as well.

[Aertes]

I have never ever said that a new unit is "needed". I tell ideas, but never put them as compulsory (come on, like I could!).

And of course I don't pretend to have a perfect and balanced idea out of the nothing (again, like I could!), that's why I write them here.

As for mechanics, you as Dark Eldar fan should be the first to see how similar and how different are Eldars and Dark Eldars. In Dow II, their style could be pretty similar.

Eldars use to activate Fleet to run forward and use the plasma grenades, while Dark Eldars should keep it to flee from the enemy if he gets too close without having to use the Retreaat button.
Abilities based in "Power Through Pain" that allowed them to operate for long time without needing to return to the base would be another good idea for a guerrilla army, like a short duration activated health regeneration that charged with the received damage, or stealth webway portals that, instead of teleporting units, allowed them to reinforce (this one would only be necesary until somoene could make a model for a heavy-infantry-armor Raider transport that worked as mobile reinforcement point)

[Mngwa]

Webway portals, I haven't even thought of them yet ^^

I would agree that they shouldn't be identical to what the CWE have in the game, and I really like the idea of it acting as a reinforcement point. I would think it could work as a portable one, though, since the Dark Eldar are known to use them. Perhaps a special ability of a commander, subcommander, or maybe the trueborn to "throw" the portal, which then lasts for some time rather than being a permanent structure, before it disappears.

[Swift]

Webway portals, I haven't even thought of them yet ^^

I would agree that they shouldn't be identical to what the CWE have in the game, and I really like the idea of it acting as a reinforcement point. I would think it could work as a portable one, though, since the Dark Eldar are known to use them. Perhaps a special ability of a commander, subcommander, or maybe the trueborn to "throw" the portal, which then lasts for some time rather than being a permanent structure, before it disappears.

Now that I like, it is part of TT and I think it could work well with the hit and run of Dark Eldar, though I can see the abuse potential will be HUGE.

[ChrisNihilus]

Units with more "Risk vs Reward" factor than the one we already have will be extremely annoying for both the player and the opponent.

There is already enough Glass Cannon and Hit-and-Run units in this game, and they stop being fun very quickly.
If you want to make a race that is more extreme in this concept than Eldar themself, you'll regret it.

[Mngwa]

Units with more "Risk vs Reward" factor than the one we already have will be extremely annoying for both the player and the opponent.

There is already enough Glass Cannon and Hit-and-Run units in this game, and they stop being fun very quickly.
If you want to make a race that is more extreme in this concept than Eldar themself, you'll regret it.

That can be disagreed upon.

[ChrisNihilus]

That's how I think it should be done.

Dark Eldars love pain and get stronger with inflicting pain.
They get tougher and more letal with inflicting suffering.

How can we represent such thing? Easy.
The unique thing about this race should be that a lot of their unit's ability should use Red (call it Pain if you want).

We must create a race that is pretty much as agile as the Eldar, and a little weaker.
Their role is then to try maximize the red, choosing to fight only winnable combats, try to get their adversary out of position, hitting run and then retreat... until they have enough to use their very powerful abilities and/or globals.

With these abilities they become tougher and stronger, and will be able to start winning major conflicts.
If they ever find themself without red, they need to start using their evasive tactics again or they will be overrun by the enemies.

You don't need to make every unit even more agile, letal and fragile than Eldar to make a race do that what we want them to do.

tl;dr Eldar with the Orks red mechanic... only with higher costs for higher benefits.

[Mngwa]

I am coming back on and finally covering my ideas for T3 ^^


First off I thought about what 'nids have, and I thought something similar could work for DE.
It is still okay for discussion about the tier-placements of wracks and grotesques, and the talos too I guess. Wracks could be either T2 or T1, and grotesques preferably in the next tier. The Talos is the closest thing to a walker-equivalent but I can see it fitting T3 as well.

So, as to units which I thought about for this (most of these are probably obvious since I haven't featured them earlier)

First off the Ravager. T3-tank, predator, fire prism, etc. Triple the firepower of a raider, vehicle armour (in TT you actually can't destroy a ravager with bolters! Woo!). As far as upgrades go, the dissie-cannons would make it do tons of damage to heavy infantry, but it would lose most of its anti-tank. Depending on how good the dark lances are, the upgrade should be fairly cheap, and maybe, reversible? The cost could be payed each time and you would have to wait for the upgrade, but it could be interesting for the tank to change between triple-lances and triple-cannons.
Other upgrades could include the flickerfield for a small shield, but I don't think it needs much else. Nightshields could be very interesting if they are implemented a little like smoke grenades or the flare but I don't know how well it would go.
Relatively cheap but weak. The Fire Prisms are already pretty darn fragile, so I guess the Ravager has to be even more.

Next up, the Haemonculus. T3 subcommander. This is a little like how the 'nids have it. They technically even have two subcommanders in T3.
Supportive commander. Provides a health-regen boost around him. Starts off fairly tough, but slow compared to other DE-units (same lines as the wracks).
Haemonculi have always had a lot of interesting weapons and weird items, and there's plenty of thought to what weapons he should have. My suggestions are to make him a little more interesting at ranged combat while still not being a huge "gun-hero". When he comes out of the gate, without any upgrades, he would start with a stinger pistol and a simple CCW. The stinger pistol would be pretty deadly to light infantry, maybe again with the theme of damage over time.
For upgrades, first a simple melee-upgrade of a fleshgauntlet, or, alternatively, the scissorhand. They are both quite similar. DPS-increase, power melee?
A ranged upgrade as an alternative choice to the first could either be the hexrifle or liquifier gun, like the upgrades I gave for wracks.
Of other supportive upgrades, there are so many options. I don't know much of which ones would be considered the most "traditional ones", but the suggestions I have are the Crucible of Malediction and Animus Vitae.
The Crucible is quite similar to a wargear already present. It is supposed to be a psyker-hunter for a haemonculus, but it would work great as a AoE attack that prevents ability-usage for a small amount of time. The visual effect could simply be a sonic blast. The sound could be a simple copy of the banshee-shout.
The Animus Vitae I considered as a close-range fleshhook, but probably a little more damaging and little less disrupting. Could also include a self-heal for the haemonculus.

Then the incubi. T3 squad with 3 members to start with. Can upgrade with a klaivex for 4. Heavy Infantry.
And my wild suggestion here is inferno-melee damage. The Tzeentch-marines and IIRC Dark Reapers had this for range, and I could see the incubi as a unit to at least try to take on super-heavy squads on their own in melee instead.
Fairly good melee skill (75 to 80?) and a small but quick disruption special.
Fleet would probably be the only ability they need, like the seer council. Incubi are pretty tough, and their HP should be no less per model than the seer council does (rather more, since they deserve something for the best armour dark eldar have!).
Against any terminators without lightning claws, they should win. They should do fairly well against nobs with upgrades and buffs as well as against lightning claw terminators.



For super units, my suggestion is: None. Dark Eldar aren't about huge creatures and tanks lumbering about. The best option I see is a Tantalus but I would much prefer if they remain as an army that doesn't feature a huge skimmer but rather a horde of smaller ones.



Those are my full unit suggestions.
For commander call-in units, I would suggest an option for power-free Incubi for an archon and a scourge-drop as a standard.
Another idea is a bloodbride-call for a succubus-commander, but that would mean forgetting my idea of wych-vanguard transformation

[Aertes]

That's how I think it should be done.

Dark Eldars love pain and get stronger with inflicting pain.
They get tougher and more letal with inflicting suffering.

How can we represent such thing? Easy.
The unique thing about this race should be that a lot of their unit's ability should use Red (call it Pain if you want)

I think It would be better represented with the leveling of the units. Dark Eldars get stronger the more pain they inflict (the more they kill practically). That's what levelling up does in Dow II. Dark Eldar units could get unique improvements when they reach Level 2, and so on.

[Torpid]

From a fluff perspective I don't see how inflicting pain would make them stronger; rather not inflicting pain would make them weaker as their sexual frustrations get too high, furthermore they'de have no souls to harvest. Everything dark eldar do meets one of those purposes: Is fun and pleasurable (not necessarily sexually, but sex can be taking to quite an extreme to give pleasure to the extreme, and this is why they enjoy torture, they're sexual sadists/masochists), or helps them satisfy slaanesh (capturing and sacrificing souls).

[Mngwa]

From a fluff perspective I don't see how inflicting pain would make them stronger; rather not inflicting pain would make them weaker as their sexual frustrations get too high, furthermore they'de have no souls to harvest. Everything dark eldar do meets one of those purposes: Is fun and pleasurable (not necessarily sexually, but sex can be taking to quite an extreme to give pleasure to the extreme, and this is why they enjoy torture, they're sexual sadists/masochists), or helps them satisfy slaanesh (capturing and sacrificing souls).

"Sacrificing souls"?
Dark Eldar aren't worshippers of Slaanesh, they are anti-chaos like Craftworld Eldar ^^



Anyway, are there any mechanics that would make it possible for abilities to be gained when leveling up? I got interested of that, and it could indeed be something.
But otherwise I don't see that much need of it, especially if it isn't possible to do. Regular leveling with increased health/skill/dps is already good.

[Aertes]

From a fluff perspective I don't see how inflicting pain would make them stronger

But that's exactly what they do from the fluff's perspective. Take it as you want: the excitement of battle, the absortion of their enemie's soul/living energy, there's a handful to choose.

[Torpid]

The excitement of battle? Are dark eldar khornates now? No, they're closest to Slaaneshi's if anything. I don't know, I don't play the TT, it just doesn't make any sense how shooting at something would make them do more damage without them being khornates.

They don't worship slaanesh but they still sacrifice souls to him so that they can retain their own souls for longer. Unlike the craftworld eldar they don't have spirit stones so the only way they can protect themselves from slaanesh is by appeasing him by feeding him souls.

[Mngwa]

Chaplains are secretly khornates. They collect skulls!

[Aertes]

Haven't ever noticed how suspiciously khorneful does the eldar Avatar look?

[Mngwa]

Oh! Oh!

Splinter weapons are Nurgle-marked because they are poison! Dark Eldar are followers of Nurgle!

[Atlas]

The Custodes are heretics!

Anyway, I'm far from a lore professor, but if I recall correctly I thought the Dark Eldar got their rocks off from inflicting pain on others but were terribly sensitive to pain themselves. Isn't that why their stuff is all really good damage, high speed but with toilet paper armor on TT?

[ChrisNihilus]

They sacrifice the souls of the others, yes, but they do it with inflicting pain.

these piratical people revel in the physical and emotional pain of others, for feeding upon the psychic residue of suffering is the only way they can stave off the slow consumption by the Chaos God Slaanesh of their own souls

That is represented in the TT wth the Power From Pain rule, that say that everytime they kill an enemy unit they take a Pain Token that make them stronger (the first token is Feel no Pain, then Furious Charge, then Fearless).

And then, almost all their weapons are design to kill with the most amount of pain possible. Names like the Agonizer, Electrocorrosive Whips, Razorflail... give an idea.
Even their basic poison weapons (splinter rifle) did not kill you in one instant, but they attack the nerve system. They left the enemy on the ground convulsing in a great amount of pain until the mind shut down.

The Agonizer expecially is good for that.

They keep slaves for torturing them, emotionally and physically. They don't sacrifice them.

[Dark Riku]

They also like to hurt themselves. They wear armor with spikes on the in and outside... weirdo's

[Torpid]

They sacrifice the souls of the others, yes, but they do it with inflicting pain.

these piratical people revel in the physical and emotional pain of others, for feeding upon the psychic residue of suffering is the only way they can stave off the slow consumption by the Chaos God Slaanesh of their own souls

That is represented in the TT wth the Power From Pain rule, that say that everytime they kill an enemy unit they take a Pain Token that make them stronger (the first token is Feel no Pain, then Furious Charge, then Fearless).

And then, almost all their weapons are design to kill with the most amount of pain possible. Names like the Agonizer, Electrocorrosive Whips, Razorflail... give an idea.
Even their basic poison weapons (splinter rifle) did not kill you in one instant, but they attack the nerve system. They left the enemy on the ground convulsing in a great amount of pain until the mind shut down.

The Agonizer expecially is good for that.

They keep slaves for torturing them, emotionally and physically. They don't sacrifice them.

Hmm, I think hindsight I've made a mistake thinking about this. I was thinking that the Gods could only be empowered by the giving of actual souls, but then I recall how orks severely empower their gods with their battles even when they win hugely and lose barely any souls in the process. I had always thought they tortured the slaves for sexual reasons and personal pleasure and then whenever Slaanesh actually needed more souls they already had the slaves there ready to be offered up to the god;hence it was fun and convenient. I guess that's wrong?

[Aertes]

if I recall correctly I thought the Dark Eldar got their rocks off from inflicting pain on others but were terribly sensitive to pain themselves

Almost, but the other way around.

Dark eldars grow so accustomed to pain that become senseless and the only whay they have to keep experimenting is inflicting pain to others. As someone said, they are very related to Noise Marines and the Slaanesh cult. In short terms, it was because of the Dark Eldars that Slaanesh was born, after all.

But the Eldar teology have always been very related to Chaos gods anywway. The eldar god of war Khaine and the Chaos god of war Khorne have always been suspicious of being the same entity followed by different cults. There's a lot of background to be followed from there.

But as for this thread, the short version is: "dark eldars love to inflict pain to others and revel on that so much that they seem to need it as much as breathing" or "the more they hurt others the stronger they get" if a shorter version is needed. And again, I think the better way to represent this is giving dark eldar units unique abilitiees when they level up. Examples base in the boardgame rules:
Dark eldar unit reaches level 2: It gets a boost on its health regeneration
Dark eldar unit reaches level 3: It gets a boost on its melee damage
Dark eldar unit reaches level 4: It gets a boost on its courage health

[Mngwa]

Dark Eldar rejuvenate by inflicting pain. There isn't anything special that makes them feel pain a lot worse, they often actually enjoy pain more and tolerate it better than other eldar. Urien Rakarth for example actually likes getting killed because he savours pain like wine (I think that was an actual comparison in his entry)
The main difference why they die more often is because CWE has the better materials for armour But Dark Eldar can revive themselves so they are basically immortal anyway.

So most of the time they are even more of a glass cannon, but there are situations and units which are significantly tougher than the other eldar.
If I use the TT for an example, a kabalite warrior with a pain token is more likely to survive being fired at by a heavy bolter than a dire avenger, becuase the kabalite has the feel no pain-roll which allows him to ignore the pain. That is also sort of a way of showing how they are physically stronger than their craftworld cousins.
Then of course there are wracks, who have the basic statline of orks (with the exception of better initiative and leadership), in addition to FnP.

The Power from Pain-thing is that the Dark Eldar feed on souls to become younger (in body, at least, not mind). If they don't, they wither very rapidly (rapidly for an eldar, at least) and they can't reach an age that a craftworlder could naturally reach. That is why they are more aggressive, because they need the pain to survive. They don't kill others so that they could make Slaanesh happy. By killing others and not dying, they are actually weakening Slaanesh because he receives no eldar souls.

And when a Dark Eldar indeed does die, if the soul is a strong one, the chances are a haemonculus will just bring it back and again Slaanesh is denied something.

EDIT: I agree that Khaine is quite similar to Khrone. I still can't understand why Eldar like him at all, he is such a dick in the mytheology, especially to Isha, Kurnous and the eldar race itself

The other thing that makes CWE closer to chaos is that they use psykers, whereas a Commorrite has a minimal beacon in the warp, and psykers are actually the only thing forbidden by Vect.