DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

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enlg
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DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby enlg » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 7:02 am

Hey everyone,

I'm interested in creating a project that draws people to both Retail and Elite Dawn of War 2. Played for 9ish years, average player (not Torpid). I also played tabeltop 40k since early 4th Edtion and got into it because of Necrons.

I think Retail DOW2 is incredibly fun. I have some issues with it, but its a game I still appreciate.

While many players eventually find issues with Retail's balance, I think a good mod that is just Retail+New Race can be good for the game, easy for casual players to switch to temporarily for fun. Or it could be a mod with all other new races, but designed to work with retail balance (so Grey Knights too etc.).

New races can draw interest, new players can end up enjoying the rest of the game too, Retail and/or Elite Mod. I definitely used to play a balance of each, but now play mostly retail as its easier to remember/learn.

The Mod could also implement bugfixes so that its better than Retail in that way.

Each new race is very difficult to make. I saw the posts saying we have some (few) Necron models. I like the idea of using the Dark Crusade models for a base and learning to texture them in Dawn of War 2. I'm interested in learning modding and animation.

I wanted to organize this post with 3 main ideas:

1. Difficulty with models and animations
-how much can we draw from existing sources, how hard is it to learn. Applying animation skeletons to textures etc.
-how much time people have/interest

2. Game Design:
-I want Necrons balanced for retail, as to release a mod that is just Retail+other races that are approximately balanced for it.
-players familiar with retail find it more comfortable to come back to. New content can bring them back to the game. And then maybe bring them into elite

3. Ownership/control issues:
-other people can use the models/textures we create
-I'd try to find a group to work on balance, I only know retail, so Elite mod players could adapt it if they want it.
-Goal is use Dark Crusade Models, and keep unit list relatively tame to fit in with Retail
-If people disagree on balance that's ok, we can adjust it


Game Design Outline: (personal preferences here).
-I made a rough outline of what I imagine as a balance-able race for retail Necrons would look like
-its based on lore from dark crusade Necrons, I particularly loved the 4th edition codex as well, I think gameplay Necron's are interesting in later editions too, just I'm interested in making more Dark Crusade -esue Necrons.
-gameplay wise, I want Necrons to be a team that benefits from grouping together, with most units focusing either on ranged or melee.


Tier 1:
Necron Warriors: slow, basic range, resilient, average damage, maybe tier 2 slight vehicle damage.
Scarabs: basic melee, average damage, not resistant to fire, fast.
Flayed Ones: slow, infiltrate, teleporting are options, debuff aura for fear on upgrade maybe.
Wraith: squad of 1 or 3? could be like raveners or assault marines. maybe phase shift. anti suppression.

Tier 2:
Tomb Spyder: vehicle, heavy melee, heals infantry?, reinforce? can purchase a gun
Destroyer: Vehicle or superheavy infantry, fast, can be tied up in melee, damage type anti infantry?
Immortals: heavy infantry, suppression team that does anti vehicle damage (doesn't hurt infantry much but suppresses them). decent melee.

Tier 3: -(Maybe C'Tan as well)
Heavy Destroyer: vehicle or super heavy infantry, fast, high anti armor damage/slows vehicles
Pariahs: power or upgrade heavy melee, active ability suppresses one squad at medium range.
Monolith: Superheavy: slow, can teleport short distances, can pull limited necron infantry (or just warriors etc.) to it by teleporting them. 4 Smaller guns do dmg vs all units, main gun does AOE damage. Average superheavy health (relies on teleport).

Hero ideas: Necron Lord, Pariah Lord, Destroyer Lord -I want input on the ideas for heroes, Pariah is based on the campaign in Dark Crusade

Necron Lord: -not sure on base ability, leaning towards teleport
-resurrection orb, heals Necrons, active.
-solar pulse (like warp spider shimmer orb)
-abilities to teleport allies, or slow enemies
-splash damage in melee (lightning field)
-warscythe power/heavy melee option
-anything, other people might have clearer ideas.

Pariah Lord (The First Pariah):
-lore of Pariah's is that they carry an anti-psyker gene, a lack of a soul that hurts psykers.
-base starts with power weapon that slows, lower base damage than other melee heroes (only better vs non power weapon heroes).
-medium range abilities to slow or drain enemy units.
-no mobility but abilities provide defense
-doesn't directly help allies

Destroyer Lord:
-destroys cover, can't benefit from cover, ranged hero, builds turrets
-has lower damage than the techmarine and plague champion, higher health but can't benefit from cover
-turrets could be weaker or equal, not sure
-can become faster with upgrades
-can improve armor with upgrades?
-abilities could improve allied vehicles, maybe an aura for destoyers
-weapon upgrades could be expensive but give moderate damage, not sure if given melee upgrade (it would be a warscythe probably).
-can upgrade mobility to move faster
-could slightly increase allies speed with an upgrade (one that upgrades his own speed, one that upgrades others, mutually exclusive)


Ideas for Global, and C'Tan considerations (C'Tan could also be tier 3):
500 Nuke Ideas:
-any generic nuke ideas
-a building eruption style nuke like the Tyranids
-a recolor

Other abilities could involve:
deep strike flayed ones
building or turret call ins
C'Tan call in unit like a Venerable Dreadnought type thing. Unit Cost also. Tier 3.
Slow an enemy champion (Pariah)
Damage AOE
Lightning Field (improve melee damage of a squad)
Solar Pulse (make it a global shimmer orb).
Veil of Darkness (infiltrates a unit)
Increase vehicle damage

For anyone interested just let me know if these goals seem realistic.
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OceansAteAlaska
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 11:22 am

youre asking for a retail mod basically on an elite forum
also creating another mod would just divide the playerbase even further
Nuadhu Coeurdefeu
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby Nuadhu Coeurdefeu » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 12:37 pm

You can contact the elite mod owners I think they will be happy to have someone else to help them.
Personally I would like Dark Eldar and necron on dow 2. Anyway it's a very good idea.
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OceansAteAlaska
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 12:51 pm

no its not a good idea, the devs arent gonna make an entirely new mod when we already have elite and a very small playerbase. Especially balanced around retail
Nuadhu Coeurdefeu
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby Nuadhu Coeurdefeu » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 1:04 pm

Not a new mode, I meant add another race to elite is a very good idea. Even if it will takes time because of balance and so on. Lot of people will come back for sure :) and if we keep a good and kind community!
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Torpid
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby Torpid » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 1:51 pm

So you want a new mod that is all of Elite's bug fixes/QoL changes, with retail's balance and a new race?

And are you able to model/animate the necron entities?

I mean, if you can do most of the work for making necrons yourself Elite mod can probably help you with that if we can steal the necrons at the end, however short of that there's no reason we would support another mod that only splits the playerbase even further...

Something like a last stand or campaign mod is different since those don't directly compete with Elite but this would... It's a bad idea.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
PianoMan
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby PianoMan » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 2:17 pm

we're happy we get a patch once a year and you want new races? lolok
enlg
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby enlg » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 5:55 pm

No worries, thanks for the feedback.

-I posted here because there are modders who in the past seemed interested in Necrons, was looking through posts was curious who was interested.

-The end product of the models/animations would certainly be gifted to elite mod

-I'm not trying to make it a "retail only" kind of mod,just my outline is made my me, who knows retail matchups but doesn't know elite mod.

-knowing you guys have one patch a year is helpful haha

-I'm happy to do most or all of the modeling even if it takes a while. Existing skeletons in Dawn of War 2 can likely help.

My argument for creating new races is that, many people develop interest in 40k games based on race/faction aesthetics, and then from there people can appreciate the gameplay. Dark Crusade was very popular, so I see all over forums people saying they'd want to play Dawn of War 2 if it had those races.

So I'm guessing that it could add new players.

-maybe I'll drop the bugfix idea....if playerbase splitting is caused by it, I'd put it on hold, even though implementing them would be ideal, many retail players don't care too much.

A Necron mod could tap into Dark Crusade fans a lot as I said earlier. The Tau and Necron Last Stand units reminds me of how much I enjoy those races.

I really like Grey Knights, so that's one main reason why I have Elite Mod installed. The skin packs are cool too. Just playing VS AI with the new models and textures can be fun.

Simple aesthetic representation can mean a lot to 40k players and I think it frequently draws people in.

It's hard to know how many people play alone too, and only join multiplayer eventually.

So my stance right now is, probably no harm in creating the models. Relating to the playerbase splitting, I agree with the concern, but I think creating the models at least might even draw interest on its own from people who never felt compelled to play this game before.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 16 Dec, 2020 7:48 pm

Necrons would be cool. I was under the impression that most people played retail because it doesn't require installing a mod so not sure if having to install a mod for them will bring them over. Is there a site or any kind of organized place to communicate for retail players? In Elite one of the things keeping us alive are the constant tournaments making our low playerbase very active. Retail doesn't have that so I doubt the mod would last. Continual content being added is another way to make it work, but that would take a lot of commitment on your part.
littlecthulhu
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby littlecthulhu » Sun 20 Dec, 2020 11:03 pm

Hey hey, everybody.
I just recently rediscovered DoW2 and the Elite mod and love the idea of adding Necrons (and new races in general :) ). I don't think a separate mod would be wise, but expanding Elite sounds like fun. I myself somewhat know my way around 3D and 2D art and was wondering about some of the technical details since I played with the idea of maybe making a couple of assets my self. Maybe somebody from the team could answer those. :D

What are the average poly counts for the models you use and/or the engine can handle without problem?
What texture resolution do you use for the models?
What data format do you use/prefer for the exports?
Where could you be contacted to receive such assets? (Discord?)
Is there a list with pending assets nobody is working on yet? (Would be a shame to make random assets while you guys have a massive list to work through. ^^)

There probably are threads with that stuff around, but most things I saw dealt with balancing, general data handling, and general modding. So I just ask in here, since I feel like it fits the discussion.
Thanks and have a nice one. :)
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Torpid
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Re: DOW2 Necrons Plan for Retail and Elite

Postby Torpid » Mon 21 Dec, 2020 12:01 am

littlecthulhu wrote:Hey hey, everybody.
I just recently rediscovered DoW2 and the Elite mod and love the idea of adding Necrons (and new races in general :) ). I don't think a separate mod would be wise, but expanding Elite sounds like fun. I myself somewhat know my way around 3D and 2D art and was wondering about some of the technical details since I played with the idea of maybe making a couple of assets my self. Maybe somebody from the team could answer those. :D

What are the average poly counts for the models you use and/or the engine can handle without problem?
What texture resolution do you use for the models?
What data format do you use/prefer for the exports?
Where could you be contacted to receive such assets? (Discord?)
Is there a list with pending assets nobody is working on yet? (Would be a shame to make random assets while you guys have a massive list to work through. ^^)

There probably are threads with that stuff around, but most things I saw dealt with balancing, general data handling, and general modding. So I just ask in here, since I feel like it fits the discussion.
Thanks and have a nice one. :)


DM me on discord.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!

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