Composer looking to contribute

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Zavalus
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Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Mon 11 Nov, 2013 10:12 am

Hey, guys! I've been watching Indrid's replays for a while now. They got me hooked up on the mod, really. And I think, you're all doing a praise-worthy job on creating this mod. Just wanted to start off with that :)

To the point - I'm a composer. I mainly do orchestral pieces, pretty much inspired by stuff like Two Steps From Hell. A while ago I started a little side-project of mine called Forlorn Visions to focus on pieces inspired simply by the WH40K universe. I was wondering, if you might like it and maybe even use it in the mod.

The thing is, I have no idea, how it is with music in the mod. I can't find anyone credited on your website on that department. I assume it's some royalty-free stuff, judging by the bitrate of the audio.

So, if you'll like my works, I'll be more than happy to contribute in any way :)

Here are the links to my pieces on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ91IEpgsL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkhjdbZLj0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVOB4is21c

Treat those more like a demo. I can easily re-adjust them, make them longer, shorter, whatever.

Let me know your thoughts on this.
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Lag
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Lag » Mon 11 Nov, 2013 10:31 am

Your music sounds amazing.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Orkfaeller » Mon 11 Nov, 2013 10:47 am

Jesus, feels like a little renaissance for DoW/ELITE happening,

first we get a portrait artist, then another 3D guy now a composer popping up.
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Caeltos
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Caeltos » Mon 11 Nov, 2013 11:40 am

We'd be more then happy to have a composer with us! :D

To the point - I'm a composer. I mainly do orchestral pieces, pretty much inspired by stuff like Two Steps From Hell.

Great source of inspiration. I'm a big fan of them, or Immediate Music. Some other individualistic artist like Mark Petrie and the alike are awesome as well, I usually always listen to epic Orchestral (or just Orchestral) when designing to get a good sense of immersion and feel for the stuff I'm making.

The thing is, I have no idea, how it is with music in the mod. I can't find anyone credited on your website on that department. I assume it's some royalty-free stuff, judging by the bitrate of the audio.

The main menu we're using at the moment is actually used/made in the Ultimate Apocalypse Mod for DoW1: Soulstorm, we got permission to use it, it's onfortunate we haven't listed the author we made the music yet however. (I believe it's an actual "remix" of another song, I just can't figure out the name of it, but I have on my epic playlist.)

I'm pretty sure we can implement music to the actual game, considering we did that with the main menu. But for actual individual faction music to be played during in-game, I'm not sure. Lulgrim can probably answer those types of questions.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Lulgrim » Mon 11 Nov, 2013 12:32 pm

In-game music can be complicated as it may be pieced together from segments on the fly. It's probably possible in some way. The menu/UI music is fairly simple to replace.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby David-CZ » Mon 11 Nov, 2013 8:15 pm

Amazing work. I've always been admiring people who can compose and draw. Not just because results of both can be breathtaking but also because I totally suck at both of them myself.

Also I see you're an Eldar fan. High five!
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 12 Nov, 2013 12:09 am

dow2 actually has an amazing soundtrack, particularly the eldar, IG, and chaos pieces. the rest are good but all sound the same. that said, more music would be nice and GK could use their own pieces. i'm not sure how difficult that would be to implement though as they are currently part of spacemarines.

tangentially related for those interested:
http://tehparadox.com/forum/f86/trailer ... ex225.html
lot of dead links in the beginning due to megaupload but updated fairly regularly and the new links work.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby SirSid » Tue 12 Nov, 2013 5:43 am

Sounds really good man would love to have them tunes in game ;)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Tue 12 Nov, 2013 7:38 am

Well, first of all - thanks to anyone who enjoyed the music! That's a bigger morale booster than a female commissar ;)

@Nuclear Arbitor - there are some great pieces in DoW2 soundtrack, with "Wrath of Khaine" being my personal favourite. However, I still prefer Jeremy Soule's compositions in DoW1. I always had the feeling that despite the great production value, the OST from DoW2 was somewhat lacking in some way. That's not saying it's bad. Don't get me wrong. But, as you said, it tends to be same-ish.

Also, I'm sure I won't top the official soundtrack. All in all, I never had any musical education, I'm doing everything by the ear and I'm working on some really ancient equipment. I just thought it would be cool for the mod to have some custom music. Who knows, it just might help to avoid some of those pesky Nob squads from the GW's legendary legal department ;)

@David-CZ - I sure am a fan of the Eldar :) Such beautiful and original background... I'm mean, that kind of fluff deserves some love!

@Caeltos - Does that mean, you're interested? :) If so, don't hesitate to tell me what you would like or need exactly and I'll be happy to comply and try to do my best. If it turns out that you can implement music for each race, I would be willing to try and do that as well, though it seems like a daunting task, to be honest ;) Still, I enjoy a good challenge :)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Kilgarn » Tue 12 Nov, 2013 8:24 am

Sweet :3

A composer ^^ This mod's staff is getting better and better :D
I liked the 3rd (Patient Hunter) of the pieces you showed here :3
I'm a huge fan of Two Steps from Hell, Audiomachine, Immediate Music, Atmosphare Music, X-Ray Dog and so on :D
They are indeed a nice inspiration ^^ I usually draw while listening to them or other fine stuff xD

Anyways, I'm looking forward for your work ;)
And dont worry... personally, I'm self-taught also, I'm an illustrator tho :D In the end you are always self-taught to some degree :D Even the pros ^^
Welcome to our marry band ^^
Hope you enjoy your stay :D
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Tue 12 Nov, 2013 5:45 pm

You have my vote Zavalus, I'd love to start hearing your music in the main menu title and possibly for the Grey Knights background music!

Particularly the first one you listed, I'd like to have that as the main menu background music for the Elite mod.
"To divert from Tau'va is stray away from the one true path, and to stray from the one path is to walk into darkness and despair, only together, serving Tau'va can we prosper not only as an empire but as a race." -- Shas'el T'au Doran'ro
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Sun 08 Dec, 2013 7:01 pm

Just a little update on my part. :)

Since I felt, that giving Elite one of my already published tracks was an easy way out and not exactly fair towards the community, I made a separate track fully dedicated to the mod :) It's not finished, as I have no idea, how long should it be, but... here it is:

https://soundcloud.com/pawe-zawal-1/dow2-elite-menu-theme-draft

Any thoughts and comments are, as always, more than welcome :)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby RagingJenni » Mon 09 Dec, 2013 9:06 am

Good music, liked march of the damned and wherever the path leads in particular. :)
"Then he sang softly nigh the pearly rim, But the sad dweller by the sea-ways lone
Changed all he sang to inarticulate moan, Among her wildering whirls, forgetting him"
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Uncle Milty » Mon 09 Dec, 2013 2:56 pm



I approve your effort and general wish to contribute.
In my opinion "Whereever The Path Leads" is more suitable for the warhammer 40k franchise in general than the track you wrote directly for the menu. I feel it lacks a distinguished and powerful baseline (maybe some more taiko drum rolls) and therefor "darkness" in it. At the moment i feel the menu track expresses "concern" rather than "war". It would be epic if the game switches to this song when you are low on vps, this would really intensify the overall gameplay - at least for me.

Another word on "Whereever The Path Leads":
i thoroughly like the interlude beginning at ~1.05 and the upcoming part. esp the choirs add some typical dow2 feeling we all know from the eldar tracks and i kinda feel like the menu song should have elements in it to represent all races to some extend - ofc without getting messy or overloaded (maybe a longer loop?). Since i compose stuff myself I know this is a difficult task and requires a lot of reworking, rehearsal and 2nd opinions. Well be sure that you will always get to hear my opinions, if you want to or not. :twisted:

On "March of the Damned":
From a wh40k point of view I feel the start sounds very space marines-ish, intense, steady, forceful, unstoppable. The interlude again is rather psychic, eldarish but not quite as mystic because it is again very spurring, exactly like an approaching eldar force within the webways should echo like :? Maybe the conjunction of both parts could have been delayed a lil more (2 tacts) to intensify the whole fealing just to the roof with these rising strings. But that would be something to be tested out if it works. Other than that i like the variation beginning at ~1.40 a lot.


Again: I am speaking from a personal wh40k point of view and i know those last 2 tracks aren't meant to be wh40k stuff. But i think it could be useful to know what would work (in other people's opinions). I'd like to listen to more stuff and comment on that and i'm glad you appreciate the thoughts of the community. :-)
Keep up the good work!
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Caeltos » Mon 09 Dec, 2013 5:05 pm

I can only speak on behalf of my personal preference on what I like, and what I associate with the Warhammer 40K.

Personally, I'm not a big on "uplifting" // or light-tunes. It personally gives too much sense of uplifting feeling, whereas I feel in the Warhammer 40K, there's no real such thing. There's just pure and utter chaos, and if there's a chance you'll win/come out on-top. There's going to be a price to pay, and it'll either be heavy losses, or sacrifices to be made, and the music should reflect that.

When I do balance changelogs, I always try to get into the perfect mood. So I actually skim through Epic Score, Tarek Mansur, Brand X Music and whatever- appropiate music I can find to get myself as inspired and attached to the corresponding faction that I'm working with. Now, this is my personal feeling of faction music;

Space Marines - Stoic, and Heroic. The music should reflect that these guys are tough nuts to crack. I personally think that what Relic did with these are pretty much what I'd recon the music would be for these guys. Angels of Death // DoW1 main theme for them are pretty spot on.

Musical stuff - Somewhere between uplifting/dark centered theme. Choir could be added if needs be, but it's no personal preference on this.

Chaos - Anger, Hate, Despair, Revenge. Just general theme of just negative feelings all-around. I would guess they would be displayed as a very "villain" type, despite there's no clear white/black in the WH40K universe.

SONG - Epic Score - Underworld Rising
It strikes a fine tone of balance of showing you the menacing powers of Chaos, and what it's really all about. There's no good coming out of this.

Grey Knights
This is probably the only faction that I would consider having some sort of an "uplifting" theme to it. Yet, I believe it should be mixtured with a sense of desperation and "Victory at all cost" theme. A theme that I feel strikes very Grey Knight is "Immediate Music - Call to Arms", choir in general seems to feel very "Holy", to a degree - and Grey Knights are pretty zealous afterall.

But again, an uplifting tone shouldn't overwhelm the general theme of the song. It should only be uplifting if it's an emotional track, and I don't think emotional (sadness, happiness, etc) suits very well with the WH40k. Since it has a grim-feel to it.

Orks
Orks are the trickier among the other factions, it's not a personal favorite of the WH40K universe. Drums, very savagery. Not very complicated, but alot of uhr... how do I put it? Rhythmic?

Eldar
Again, with the feel to Eldar. You can probably go with abit of an undertone of sadness. Afterall, they're a pretty much "Extinct" race, and they're just a "handful" left. So the feeling you should get as an Eldar, is that you were once the most powerful race in the galaxy, but now your empire is more or less in ruins. You either take your rightful place back, or you go away and just die away. They're arrogant, but they're aware of their current situation.

In Retribution, there is a song called "Eldar Theme 1" it's part of the OST. Either way. That song really caught me into a very good eldar feeling, because you get a sense of how desperate, and lost it's for the Eldar. The choir is the main "lead" in the theme, with the eerie sound of something in the background. I highly recommend that song to strike the mood for Eldar in general. It's not a very "battle-oriented" theme, but more ambient.

Either way, I'm getting really side-tracked here. I'll just put my opinion on what I feel the main theme should really be all about;

The Main Theme
The Main theme should try to find a balance between all corresponding factions, OR at least try to get a sense of theme going for it. The theme should be of course - There is only War. The music should go along when you're doing things in the background. That means, checking things in the Army Painter, or replays or sticking around in the lobby.

I would just recommend going abit darker on the general theme. But again, I've voiced my preference on the direction and all. The "drum" is a pretty good tool for setting the pace and tone for the music.

I'll add more stuff later.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 10 Dec, 2013 1:03 am

baring SM, Orks, and nids, the sound tracks for each race fit them very well. the three mention all use the SM themed music. if someone wants to make music that fits the particular races take a look at the OST, it's not hard to find and very good.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Fri 13 Dec, 2013 4:09 am

So, first of all - a big 'thank you' to Uncle Milty and Caeltos for taking their time to write such long and precise comments on my music! That kind of feedback might for many people might seem discouraging, since (let's be honest here) everyone expects others to love their works and appreciate all the effort. Well, actually it's not quite like that. Once you get over that feeling, you get to realize how valuable are all those opinions. Especially from people who took their time and wrote at lenght about your work.

And this is what it's actually all about for me :) If people wouldn't like what I'm doing they wouldn't take their time to write lenghty posts about it. On the other hand, if they do write lenghty posts, it means (at least for me), that I'm treated as a professional. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is far more satisfying than even the sweetest compliment. :)

But to the point

Uncle Milty wrote:t the moment i feel the menu track expresses "concern" rather than "war"

I might be wrong here, but I think it may be because the track takes too long to develop into more tense sounds. Maybe that's just me, though.

Uncle Milty wrote:t would be epic if the game switches to this song when you are low on vps, this would really intensify the overall gameplay

I don't think that's possible, sadly. Still, I might be wrong here.

Uncle Milty wrote:the menu song should have elements in it to represent all races to some extend - ofc without getting messy or overloaded (maybe a longer loop?)

I can totally agree with that. However, not making a track messy means that you should have it divided into sections and then combine them into a longer loop, as you said. This is a bit problematic, since it forces you to decide on the sequence of those sections. Sure, Eldar fans (myself included) would love to hear an eldar-themed section at the very beginning, right after you launch the game. But that's not fair, is it? As far as I know, every time you make a soundtrack, you have to make compromise. You simply can't encompass every aspect of the game at hand.

Uncle Milty wrote:I know this is a difficult task and requires a lot of reworking, rehearsal and 2nd opinions. Well be sure that you will always get to hear my opinions, if you want to or not. :twisted:

And those 2nd opinions are always more than welcome, so rest assured I will always want them ;)

Unlce Milty wrote:i know those last 2 tracks aren't meant to be wh40k stuff. But i think it could be useful to know what would work (in other people's opinion

Well, actually all of the tracks I featured here are wh40k stuff :) They were heavily inspired by that universe. :)

Caeltos wrote:in the Warhammer 40K, there's no real such thing. There's just pure and utter chaos, and if there's a chance you'll win/come out on-top. There's going to be a price to pay, and it'll either be heavy losses, or sacrifices to be made,

I can't quite agree with that. I mean, sure, all sentient races are pretty much at war with each other, but I wouldn't bring it all down to utter chaos and constant sacrifices. The DoW franchise isn't exactly representing what is the wh40k universe like. Let me give you a few examples:

1) Space Marines and CSM are an elite strike force. Chapters are not made for all-out warfare. The main task of the Space Marines is to strike precise and game-changing blows. Prolonged battles tend to not end well for Space Marines due to the loss of gene-seeds. I would call them spec-ops with a hell of a brutish element.

2) Eldar are an even better example of this. They intervene only when it's absolutely necessary, since their resources are even more stretched out than SM's. No Chaos here, nor war. Just clean and precise strikes.

3) Orks, Tyranids and Imperial Guard on the other hand, have almost unlimited numbers and reserves are on constant supply to the battlefield. Chaos? Sure. War? You bet. Sacrifice? Not so much. IG Lord Generals don't give a damn even if thousands die carrying out their orders. Tyraninds and Orks don't have any kind of empathy, so they don't give a damn even more. Where's the sacrifice here?

It all comes down to the problem I have with DoW2. It neither represents simple skirmishes nor all-out battles. It's something in-between. Having that in mind, I may just understand what you mean.

Caeltos]Epic Score, Tarek Mansur, Brand X Music[/quote]
A BIG thumbs up for that :)

[quote="Caeltos wrote:
Space Marines - Stoic, and Heroic

You'll have to help me with this one :) Could you give me a link to a track that is heroic and at the same time not at least one bit uplifting? :)

Caeltos wrote:The Main theme should try to find a balance between all corresponding factions, OR at least try to get a sense of theme going for it. The theme should be of course - There is only War. The music should go along when you're doing things in the background. That means, checking things in the Army Painter, or replays or sticking around in the lobby.

As I wrote earlier to Uncle Milty, it's nigh on impossible to strike that balance between all factions. If not for all the technical issues, then because of the sequence the parts corresponding to different factions are played. I agree with you, that the music should fit all the menu options, be it either an army painter, last stand or looking for a public game. That is true. And surprisingly tricky to achieve :)

Whatever the case, I thank you both for the extended comments. Any kind of feedback is invaluable in pursuing an artistic career :)

As I said, the track for the menu is just a draft for the time being. I can promise you, I will try to make it better, more grim and reflecting more factions.

However, it might turn out, I'm not good enough for this. I work on a limited number of instruments. Sadly, I can't afford all of those beautiful sound libraries weighting like 50 GB each. Like I said, I'm working on some really crappy equipment and good luck on upgrading that while working part-time on Vostroya... I mean in Poland ;) . Just putting that out, so that it won't come to anyone as a surprise, that I might decide to abandon the effort to make music for Elite.

In the end, I think it's better to resign sometimes, than to make crap and have it signed with your name.

Emperor, forgive me for such a grim ending :P
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby FiSH » Fri 13 Dec, 2013 4:27 am

...I'm slightly confused by your post. So are you going away? :( I liked your stuff...
><%FiSH((@>
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 4:44 pm

Far from going away, Fish :)

Actually, I'm nearly done making the second draft for the menu. I should upload it in a few hours. Hopefully, it'll be more fitting this time. :)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Sub_Zero » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 5:04 pm

Ehm, we thought you had abandoned it.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Kvek » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 6:18 pm

Sub_Zero wrote:Ehm, we thought you had abandoned it.


"we" isn't the right word :)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 7:13 pm

@Sub Zero - I said I MIGHT be leaving, and only if I consider my works to be not good enough. That didn't mean I will stop trying ;)

Ok, so here's the second draft for the menu theme. I went with Caeltos' advice and tried to make it more grim. More drums, a different scale and a better brass section. Fingers crossed it works ;)

https://soundcloud.com/pawe-zawal-1/dow2-elite-menu-theme-draft-2

Hope you guys like it! All comments and critiques are, as always, more than welcome! :)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Caeltos » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 7:29 pm

Awesome stuff, I just listened to it and I've gotta say it's really great. I really do like the additions of the chorus at some parts. (iirc, they were not present in the 1st draft? Don't slap me, I just have a vague memory)
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Raffa » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 7:31 pm

Me gusta.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 7:36 pm

No, they weren't. :D So you'll only get a pat on the back for doing a great job on Elite! And thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you liked it!
Last edited by Zavalus on Thu 16 Jan, 2014 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Torpid » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 8:03 pm

Nice, I approve.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Faultron » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 9:03 pm

the first draft is way more better and lasts 3 mins
the only problem here is the high syntetic sound (reminds me of synthetic piano) dunno how to call it.If u replace that, or just change a bit how it sounds+lowering the volume of that part only= it is very nice soundtrack.

the second one (this new)is short,repetitive for 1:40 so its not complete, but can be good to add this to another even with the 1. one,(maybe not full length).
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Zavalus » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 9:37 pm

@Torpid and Raffa - Thank you! :)

@Faultron - That "synthetic piano" is a string ensemble (1 violin, 1 viola, 2 cellos, 1 contrabass, in this case) plus a trombone :) This time I used samples recorded from real instruments, so I don't know why it sounds synthetic. It's not a real orchestra, I can tell you that, so your remark could be spot on, for all I know, as I'm the last person to judge objectively my own pieces ;)

Also, tje ;emght of tha track is not an issue. It's a draft. I can change it anytime. Depending on how long the mod's author would like it to be.
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Re: Composer looking to contribute

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Wed 15 Jan, 2014 10:08 pm

What I would love to hear form Imperial guard soundtrack is to have sort of martching tempo and man chorus hailing in the background while Violins and trumpets do their solo. Something like Company of Heroes 2:esk.

-Delete the one similar post I put. Website wont load for me properly right now to fix it-
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