Current Ordo Malleaus

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Coliohotburn
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Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Thu 28 Dec, 2017 9:16 pm

So i am not an experienced player. Only ever having experience playing against friends (although i would like to learn the competitive aspect of this game). My friends current favorite army is OM. He plays GK on table top.

Ive seen many different opinions on OM and was wondering what their current state is in the game? I’d like to hear input from people more knowledgeable than I
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Atlas
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Atlas » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 6:04 am

There's some things here and there, but I think they're playable. Purgations are being looked at next patch and eventually something needs to be done about Interceptors, but it's hardly an auto-lose to play as OM atm. OM balance has tended to see-saw back and forth between maddening OP and joke weak. I think we're pretty close to the mark as of 2.7.2.
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Coliohotburn
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 6:26 am

okay cool. Personally i feel their early game is weak, but late game their terminators can be devastating. Which i kinda like. Its kinda like you have to survive early in order to have a strong come back
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Rostam
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Rostam » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 8:54 am

Fixing Ordo Malleus is easy; but i dont think you would do it
1-Bring interceptors T1 (melee only)
2-Remove Operatives
3-make T2 dread melee by default,remove the flamer option
4-Give them Predator tank as t3 option
5-take terminators to global bar and replace it with tantical glob (Global with termis and palads)
6-give purgation lascanon upgrade instead of psilencer shenanigan
7-make rhino a razorback

Done, OM fixed. It looks like a combination of SM/Chaos now (Versatile Aggressive) but it looks way better and people are happy and things are balanced :D
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 9:18 am

First off, Rostam, love your vids! I watch them a lot!!

Also i like a lot of the changes you proposed. The only thing is. As a game balance i understamd the purgation needing a lascannon or equivalent, but fluff wise purgation could never get lascannons. Not sure what could be given as an alternative but, i kinda like that it sticks with the fluff
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 10:05 am

Preds would be a big nono fluffwise though Rostam.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 10:07 am

Ehhh, 8th ed allows grey knight preds!
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 1:38 pm

Rostam313 wrote:Fixing Ordo Malleus is easy; but i dont think you would do it
1-Bring interceptors T1 (melee only)
2-Remove Operatives
3-make T2 dread melee by default,remove the flamer option
4-Give them Predator tank as t3 option
5-take terminators to global bar and replace it with tantical glob (Global with termis and palads)
6-give purgation lascanon upgrade instead of psilencer shenanigan
7-make rhino a razorback

Done, OM fixed. It looks like a combination of SM/Chaos now (Versatile Aggressive) but it looks way better and people are happy and things are balanced :D


I think if you change OM that much, you might as well remove them, because they're basically just SM with less tactical versatility
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Torpid » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 4:44 pm

TheGoldenChicken wrote:I think if you change OM that much, you might as well remove them, because they're basically just SM with less tactical versatility


Exactly.

We could have done that from day 1. It's hardly novel game design.

But there is literally no point making OM a shit version of SM. At that point you may as well just remove them and focus on balancing SM...

That is how they used to be in the past and they got changes because they were just too bad except for OP gimmicks such as interceptor t1 tele-spam. It was horrible.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 6:54 pm

I think pred may not be to bad. New fluff allows it and it could be an AV that they desperatly need! I do feel that termantors should stay as is. Grey knights are the one faction that could take termies as troops. Paladins in global is fine. Im not sure about the cantacle... i can see the strengths but havent had a situation to use it yet. But again im extremely new to the game. These are just my thoughts from playin mostly against Ai’s...
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 10:44 pm

Coliohotburn wrote:I think pred may not be to bad. New fluff allows it and it could be an AV that they desperatly need! I do feel that termantors should stay as is. Grey knights are the one faction that could take termies as troops. Paladins in global is fine. Im not sure about the cantacle... i can see the strengths but havent had a situation to use it yet. But again im extremely new to the game. These are just my thoughts from playin mostly against Ai’s...


I've found canticle to be very powerful along with terminators, not only does it allow you to save them by taking their teleport off cooldown quicker, but also allows them to toss out holocaust for days. It's just much like more dakka or for the emperor, you don't see the situations in which it might be prudent to use it
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 10:53 pm

TheGoldenChicken wrote:
Coliohotburn wrote:I think pred may not be to bad. New fluff allows it and it could be an AV that they desperatly need! I do feel that termantors should stay as is. Grey knights are the one faction that could take termies as troops. Paladins in global is fine. Im not sure about the cantacle... i can see the strengths but havent had a situation to use it yet. But again im extremely new to the game. These are just my thoughts from playin mostly against Ai’s...


I've found canticle to be very powerful along with terminators, not only does it allow you to save them by taking their teleport off cooldown quicker, but also allows them to toss out holocaust for days. It's just much like more dakka or for the emperor, you don't see the situations in which it might be prudent to use it


Yeah actually. That sounds very powerful. I’ll have to remember that!
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Rostam » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 7:04 am

@golden chicken
I would like OM look like SM/Chaos that a race that has had some kinda problem each patch,also taking interceptors t1 and giving them pred doesnt mean they are a shit version of sm (would u call chaos that cuz they have raptors and chaos pred) practically most races have jump troops,heavy weapons and tanks. besides better to be shit version of SM that be the shit version of shit :V

Also cantical is a waste of red (Terrible global),better use it on purification (energy to give to other squads) plus u have purification from ss and purifiers mindblades (dmg buff) and saving red for palads and orbital is better especaily in 1v1 . Tantical is not worth the money in comparison to other globalsetter especaily in 1v1 . Tantical is not worth the money in comparison to other globals
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Rostam » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 7:56 am

@Coliohotburn
First of all
Hey bud thanks that's very kind of you. I hope you enjoy em

Second
OM/GK is not that bad, they are playable, the thing is people dont know them well (in dow2 elite) ant their counters so sometimes get pissy at them; but to be fare they have had some kinda issue each patch (the patch numbers might not be accurate but these things happened) saying for luls :D
2.4 Tier1 rhino (HI armor) - Teleporting brother captain xD
2.5 Las rhino op - Blessed agis and unending purg (armor and accessory) both giving hp regeb - Retreating Mechanich for terminators ;V
2.6 Storm troopers grenade launcher deleted squads with each firing 2 nades instead of 1, perhaps the worst but wait here the next
2.7 Strike squad range option t1 psybolt (75 req - 15 power) slowed things on hit and deleted squad (worst thing ever)
2.7.1 Purifiers having heavy melee demon hammers :O basically retail blood letters with HI armor 0-0
2.7.3 GK has stabalized a bit but (even t1 is kinda under powered) but purgation do lots of damage to infintry and flamer dread is so op, does courage damage and tons of damage supression pluse and ability that helps knock bakc (maelstrom)
Despite all of these i would like them to work out though, and torpid is putting some good time and effort in them but i think we have had so much experience in the past trying to balance them like that so it is time for some changes

Third
The builds u can get is varied from 1v1 and team games, Torpid is the expert (perhaps the best) in 1v1s so u better learn his opinion in all (especially aothecary,warboss,inquisitor) he is all rounder though



About the buids in 1v1s
Teir 1:better to go (2x IST+1x SS+1x other units in T1) 2x IST for map control and focus firing things (they can also get nade launcher vs set up teams and sarge for defensive nades) Strike Squad has range and melee options t1 (psybolt munition,nemesis focus) range upgrade is good vs races like IG,Eldar,nids,orks in general to shoot things (dont wanna melee banshees with warlock) and melee is good vs jump troops like asm and raptors but it can work out good against SM,chaos as well . u also wanna have another unit if u see lots of melee get purgation for counter or if setup teams get operatives (they have melta bomb t2 as well) but purg is better in general having av option t2 and t1 is a suppression team with flamers

Tier2:rhino with twin linked bolter awesome vs eldar u can go vindicare if u see vehichles (more av dmg that las rhino on him) dread also can work out vs eldar well vs melee blobs and blobs in general (multi melta dread not bad vs eldar). Vs orks purifiers and rhino (for reinforce and support) is the best termi libby with smite can work out and vs melee blobs has holy ground to knock every thing back. Vs ig rhino support and plasma canon dread is good. Vs SM termi libby is great,rhino can work ,purifiers can work. Vs Chaos again libby great if they go dread u got vindicare for av and las rhino with purifers perhaps or u can go melee dread vs lots of blood letters and raptors. Vs nids pray to the emperor if Hive Tyrant,warriors,Tyrant guard,a few hormagaunts in the field :D

Tier 3:easy from here u got lrc which is awesome vs infintry blobs, palads are great vs any, terminators are HI infantry killers and interceptors can be used both v vehichles and to tie range things up with their swords (they can switch freely)
About the brother captain: Sword+blessid shield+unending purg makes ur BC into supportive melee monster (can get the halberd but no support on it)
also if u got problem with melee t1 enfeeble is a great debuff also good vs tanky big heros to shut them down. Hammer vs melee blobs, halberds vs Heavy infintry races, ward for support if u have purifers and palads and such . if u have libby not much reason to go for sword. nemesis vortex vs setup teams in t1 can work, good vs ig

About the buids in 2v2s,3v3s
it is more lobby so it is good to have counter and encounters like 1v1s but also melee and range blobs are great like 2x purg,2x interceptors ,plasma gun IST is good vs HI races even 2x plasma . if u go 2x SS dont count on them that much in later tiers better to throw em out at some point or one of em,2x ss is also good vs SM,IG,Eldar in team games, although u can always go 2xIST,1xSS which is solid . also u can fast tech in t1 and t2 if u think u are ahead and u can hold, to get to powerful tier 3 stuff

Hope it will be helpful, happy new year
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 8:07 am

@Rostam313
Thanks man build looks good. Also yeah ive watched a lot of your vids! Keep up the great work! Now just gotta actually get to playing against people lol!
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 2:43 pm

Rostam313 wrote:@golden chicken
I would like OM look like SM/Chaos that a race that has had some kinda problem each patch,also taking interceptors t1 and giving them pred doesnt mean they are a shit version of sm (would u call chaos that cuz they have raptors and chaos pred) practically most races have jump troops,heavy weapons and tanks. besides better to be shit version of SM that be the shit version of shit :V

Also cantical is a waste of red (Terrible global),better use it on purification (energy to give to other squads) plus u have purification from ss and purifiers mindblades (dmg buff) and saving red for palads and orbital is better especaily in 1v1 . Tantical is not worth the money in comparison to other globalsetter especaily in 1v1 . Tantical is not worth the money in comparison to other globals


Canticle is fine, the only reason it isn't used is because players can't figure out its niche. It reduces ability cooldowns by 500%, gives some energy regen, as well as 5 hp/s. The 5 hp/s alone makes it quite powerful, especialy in team games, where it can allow your troops to hold out for a sustained amount of time. But the 500% cooldown reduction is amazing, with so many different abilities the OM can cast, it is very powerful, some examples are listed here:
-Demolishing strike every 6 seconds
-Constant "We are the hammer" due to cooldown being shorter than duration
-IST being able to throw another nade during the cooldown
-Many psychich fields from purifiers
-Quickly recharging teleport for termies

Sometimes people just need to get out the thought that globals should either summon a unit or kill a unit to be worthwhile, and use that fleeting imagination to actually move thoughts inside their head.

On the subject of being a shitty version of other races, it's true, they won't necessarily become SM by giving them a pred and giving them T1 interceptors, they'd just be mind-numbingly boring all of a sudden. OM isn't made to be reserve SM faction, it's made to a new one, a unique taste, and people who complain that they can't pack a vehicle punch in T3, or that they can't deal with supression in T1, haven't spent enough time, thinking about how to counter supression teams, besides tossing jump troops at them. To give you an idea, in order to counter supression teams in T1, you can:
-Rush it with your BC
-"We are the hammer" and rush it with your BC
-Force sword and rush it with strikes
-Rush it with purgation
-Blind it with operatives
-Disrupt with 2 flavors of IST grenades
-Outflank it (Just like everyone else can)
-Psychic leash it to oblivion

Granted, none of these are as hard counters as ASM, raptors or stormboyz, but they get the job done, moving interceptors to T1 is redundant, as the OM already has enough options for fast-moving melee troops in T1 and T2. OM shouldn't be dumbed-down, players need to get out of the argus desert gate mindset, and think differently
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Atlas » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 5:03 pm

TheGoldenChicken wrote:
Rostam313 wrote:Fixing Ordo Malleus is easy; but i dont think you would do it
1-Bring interceptors T1 (melee only)
2-Remove Operatives
3-make T2 dread melee by default,remove the flamer option
4-Give them Predator tank as t3 option
5-take terminators to global bar and replace it with tantical glob (Global with termis and palads)
6-give purgation lascanon upgrade instead of psilencer shenanigan
7-make rhino a razorback

Done, OM fixed. It looks like a combination of SM/Chaos now (Versatile Aggressive) but it looks way better and people are happy and things are balanced :D


I think if you change OM that much, you might as well remove them, because they're basically just SM with less tactical versatility


Amen. This whole changelist reads to me as just turning OM into a weaker SM roster. We're trying to make 6 happen out of necessity and maybe we'll consider some of the others. But definitely no as a package.

Interceptors are currently a band-aid unit that provides a lot of everything in T3. I'd like to fix that, but you can't without shifting some of the tasks Interceptors do for you onto other units. Beamer Purgations would, for example, be one of those ways to have OM access relatively obtainable and stable hard AV that can compete with tanks without Interceptors. Once that is done, or it is done simultaneously, can you move things around.

I think GoldenChicken's posts in this thread in general are quite good. OM needs to see more action and thought investment before any serious conclusions can be made.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 9:23 pm

Coliohotburn wrote:Ehhh, 8th ed allows grey knight preds!

Ehhh, no it doesn't! It's neither in the Index nor the codex.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 10:51 pm

Atlas wrote:
TheGoldenChicken wrote:
Rostam313 wrote:Fixing Ordo Malleus is easy; but i dont think you would do it
1-Bring interceptors T1 (melee only)
2-Remove Operatives
3-make T2 dread melee by default,remove the flamer option
4-Give them Predator tank as t3 option
5-take terminators to global bar and replace it with tantical glob (Global with termis and palads)
6-give purgation lascanon upgrade instead of psilencer shenanigan
7-make rhino a razorback

Done, OM fixed. It looks like a combination of SM/Chaos now (Versatile Aggressive) but it looks way better and people are happy and things are balanced :D


I think if you change OM that much, you might as well remove them, because they're basically just SM with less tactical versatility


Amen. This whole changelist reads to me as just turning OM into a weaker SM roster. We're trying to make 6 happen out of necessity and maybe we'll consider some of the others. But definitely no as a package.

Interceptors are currently a band-aid unit that provides a lot of everything in T3. I'd like to fix that, but you can't without shifting some of the tasks Interceptors do for you onto other units. Beamer Purgations would, for example, be one of those ways to have OM access relatively obtainable and stable hard AV that can compete with tanks without Interceptors. Once that is done, or it is done simultaneously, can you move things around.

I think GoldenChicken's posts in this thread in general are quite good. OM needs to see more action and thought investment before any serious conclusions can be made.


I understand the necessity gameplay wise that purgations need a lascannon or equivalent, but like i stated before. I like that they stick to the fluff and dont have one. Generally on table Psycannons were always the soft AV option for Grey Knights due to the better armor penetration and damage it had. The Psilencers were always good against groups of lightly armored but high wound models. I have no idea why psycannons were taken out, im sure someone could enlighten me on that, but if that could be used as an alternative for some soft AV while making psilencers the main source for maybe infantry damage with supress and doing the incinerators for gen bashing and the like. I don't see why that wouldn't be a bad idea. Just some of my thoughts.
Last edited by Coliohotburn on Sat 30 Dec, 2017 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 10:55 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Coliohotburn wrote:Ehhh, 8th ed allows grey knight preds!

Ehhh, no it doesn't! It's neither in the Index nor the codex.


Oh yes i see.... My bad! I stand Corrected.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:29 pm

Well I've heard some talk of a conversion beamer being added...that might add some interesting and possibly, lore-sound options for AV. Maybe an AV option with lots of damage, but a large minimum range?

I know conversion beamers are meant mostly for techmarines and masters of the forge, but come on, the malleus are bound to have some high tech shit lying about
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Rostam » Sun 31 Dec, 2017 12:16 am

what happened to Eversor assassin sub commander btw?there was talk of it in the previous patches
Are u guys (Atlas and Torpid) planning to bring him in 2.8?
Also there was a Nemesis-dread-knight model at some point but i assume it is just unwritten history at this poin! or is it ^^

there was also some talk of tech priest sub commander or sth for ig since they dont have sub commanders brought it here in case i forgot to mention it
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Sun 31 Dec, 2017 2:47 am

Tbh dread knight would be a great replacement for dreadnought! Maybe im just partial to the model but its an awesome model!
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Coliohotburn » Sun 31 Dec, 2017 3:44 am

Maybe i should have put this discussion under balance and not strategy...
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Wed 03 Jan, 2018 11:52 am

I think the main problem with adding new units like the eversor and the dreadknight right now, is lack of models. The developers have said that they'd like to add a lot more, but don't have any artists to create passable models for them
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Wed 03 Jan, 2018 3:18 pm

Since they're Ordo Malleus and not Grey Knights maybe they can um...'requisition' a leman russ over a predator?

OM will always get hate even if they're the most balanced faction in the game. I feel like they're 'almost' there, even though they're quite fiddly in terms of race design as a whole.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby si1foo » Sat 26 May, 2018 12:40 pm

okay so simply put why doesn't the ordo have a conversion beam because most games i lose are simply due to getting into t2 and there being a dread in my face i cant deal with

psilencers are just too weak vs vehicles and aren't burst damage so they do nothing because dreads can tank them and run in with no real fear of being chunked
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby Schepp himself » Sun 27 May, 2018 6:37 pm

Scanning through the Codex (7th edition but still), I simply don't get the fear of the grey knights (OM) being to close to Space Marines. So what? They are basically psychic dudes in power armor, whereas Chaos is evil dudes in power armor and space marines are...generic dudes in power armor. As far as I see it, Om gets hate because they are special. They themselves have special builds and you have to have some special builds to fight them. It's very possible and as already said, the hate is based on the fact that they are underplayed as is.

But in this case I personally would welcome a more generic approach of design. A bit like Rostam suggested (save the Predator).

So you have the stormtroopers, Strike Squads, Interceptors (basically ASMs), Purifiers and Purgation squads (they have Psilencers that function more like a Heavy Bolter and Psycannons that function more like Autocannons). Throw in the Dread, the Terminators, the awesome Assasin, the Operatives and maybe different kinds of the Landraider and you got yourself a fraction that is similar to the space marines (gasp) but still has some unique flavour. And that's what in my opinion the OM is, a flavour to the Space Marine fraction.

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TE | NoSkill
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 28 May, 2018 3:19 pm

Try blessed aegis;
With all the GK stuff to give energy back ( purification on strike squad and the global " sanctify") you can make BK really tanky.
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Re: Current Ordo Malleaus

Postby SarDauk » Mon 28 May, 2018 5:51 pm

Can't we just wait the next update before wanting to change a faction which will already be hugely changed ?
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