Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

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Reineke
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Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Reineke » Sun 17 Sep, 2017 12:54 pm

I began playing DoW II recently. I really like Eldars and I really, really like the warp spider champ.
I'm studying replays to improve my (poor) gameskills, but 90% of the time I see that Warlock is picked. Is there such a difference in viability ? Or is warp spider very hard to play ?
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Torpid » Sun 17 Sep, 2017 5:23 pm

Warlock is at the moment definitely the strongest hero for eldar broadly speaking. But I think things will be far better balanced out across the three next patch.

But fret not regardless because the WSE is perfectly viable anyway courtesy of eldar being one of the best races atm. And being a teleporting ranged hero the WSE is also very strong on any map with a lot of buildings.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 17 Sep, 2017 6:26 pm

Torpid wrote:Warlock is at the moment definitely the strongest hero for eldar broadly speaking. But I think things will be far better balanced out across the three next patch.

But fret not regardless because the WSE is perfectly viable anyway courtesy of eldar being one of the best races atm. And being a teleporting ranged hero the WSE is also very strong on any map with a lot of buildings.


If you edit that into "easiest to play" I am with you. FS may be worse in T1 but will be much more of a pain in mid-late game. WSE is just WSE.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby egewithin » Sun 17 Sep, 2017 6:52 pm

Warlock is a straight forward hero, easy to play. WSE is WSE. Farseer depends on player it self, has a greater potential than all other heroes of Eldar. Even for her gate I can choose Farseer.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby boss » Sun 17 Sep, 2017 7:24 pm

Well with the wse nerf players just move on to wl now since he the easiest to play and now the strongest as well he has no bad match up and just shit on all things.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 17 Sep, 2017 7:52 pm

Warlock is probably the weakest of the Eldar heroes, but it also very offensive and straightforward so more people play him. WSE is the strongest in 1v1 and Farseer is the best overall.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby boss » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 1:07 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Warlock is probably the weakest of the Eldar heroes, but it also very offensive and straightforward so more people play him. WSE is the strongest in 1v1 and Farseer is the best overall.


WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we need to play some games vs each other
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 2:59 am

I don't play Warlock anymore. Just FC nowadays.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 3:02 am

Like most offensive heroes he is the easiest of the 3 to use and has few or no bad matchups.

In the early game you just can't go wrong with him. He's got a nice starting ability - it does huge damage to light infantry blobs and also takes very nice chunks of health out of heavy infantry as well. Both his T1 weapons are really solid: immolator can punish light infantry blobs, burn turrets/beacons, clear garrisons, and force suppression teams to relocate... all this in one weapon, not to mention its improved combat ability. Then there is his witchblade which has a frustrating knockback ranged attack and great melee offensive capability. He can bully non-offensive commanders hard and hold his own against other offensive commanders.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Psycho » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 3:49 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Warlock is probably the weakest of the Eldar heroes

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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Torpid » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 3:56 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Warlock is probably the weakest of the Eldar heroes, but it also very offensive and straightforward so more people play him. WSE is the strongest in 1v1 and Farseer is the best overall.


Think you might have missed the time when we nerfed about 12 different aspects of the wse...
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 5:28 pm

There aren't enough Eldar players and not enough of them being good for there to be any definitive knowledge of what hero is best or not. Just play whatever it is you like and constantly try to improve yourself to see how far you can go.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Reineke » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 6:10 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:There aren't enough Eldar players and not enough of them being good for there to be any definitive knowledge of what hero is best or not. Just play whatever it is you like and constantly try to improve yourself to see how far you can go.


Thanks for this advice :D

I tried WL and I'm still getting rekted though.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Rostam » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 7:06 pm

Farseer is awesome in 1v1 (pretty much any MU) I think she is perhaps among the 5 most skillfull heroes in the game if not the first,WSE is great for 1v1s too (perhaps the best for this particular MU),Though WSE is not the best choice vs an IG opponent in team games

there is a certain FS build : Ghosthelm,Armor of Fortune,Singing spear which is very effective. I quiet liked it after seeing PaperBaG doing that a few times (Dont know who used to do that build is it paper or not but was pretty cool) Here is an example of this build. Like me some Farseer Play in 1v1
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Reineke » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 8:54 pm

Many players are advising me against playing eldar as a beginner. Is it really a bad idea ?
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 9:13 pm

Reineke wrote:Many players are advising me against playing eldar as a beginner. Is it really a bad idea ?


Play what you like
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 9:30 pm

Reineke wrote:Many players are advising me against playing eldar as a beginner. Is it really a bad idea ?


They're just saying that because it's harder to play. More of an APM requirement to make full use of them. Your APM and knowledge of how to play a race will improve as you continue to play so don't worry about it. What people often forget is that your motivation is increased if you play what you want to play and you will get better at it faster.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 9:40 pm

Eldar are a very fragile race, with most of their units being glass cannons. Still, if you enjoy them go ahead and play them. Just play enough and you will learn - don't be afraid of losing most of your games at the start.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Rostam » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 9:47 pm

Reineke wrote:Many players are advising me against playing eldar as a beginner. Is it really a bad idea ?


Exactly what Ace said. u can play pretty much what u want. from my POV though Nids are the hardest race to play and GK the easiest
My POV on the difficulty of races to play : NIDS>Eldar>Chaos>Orks>IG>SM>GK it is not an exact scince though

There is also the matter of heroes, Some Melee heroes Are quiet powerful easy to play WB,CL the best followed by FC,WL
Warboss>ChaosLord>ForceCommander>Warlock>>> The rest

Some Heroes also take quiet the amount of skill to play but can be really good if u pull em out, such as the great Farseer
Farseer,Sorcerer,Knob followed closely by WSE,Mekboy i guess

It is upto what to choose in the end though,one thing is for sure try them and see for urself what is more to ur taste or which one can u b better with
Last edited by Rostam on Wed 20 Sep, 2017 5:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Reineke » Mon 18 Sep, 2017 9:48 pm

It's nice to see that this mod has such an helpful community !
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 19 Sep, 2017 12:50 pm

Eldar are the faction that require planning and micro-management the most. Charging head on a-move style is not their strength. You'd have to look at Chaos or Orks for that.

If you want an easy-to-play race, play Chaos. High Durability, high damage, no bad matchups and overall strong globals. Be warned though, the skill ceiling for the Sorcerer is much (!!!) higher than for the Chaos Lord or the Plague Champion.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Torpid » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:31 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Eldar are the faction that require planning and micro-management the most. Charging head on a-move style is not their strength. You'd have to look at Chaos or Orks for that.

If you want an easy-to-play race, play Chaos. High Durability, high damage, no bad matchups and overall strong globals. Be warned though, the skill ceiling for the Sorcerer is much (!!!) higher than for the Chaos Lord or the Plague Champion.


I don't think the ceiling is particularly higher than the PC. Although the CS does do considerably better vs WSE, IG and SM I feel.

The skill floor however, yeah. The CS skill floor is way higher than the other two.

But I am being pedantic there.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:43 am

Ok, I am only answering because as a pedantic german I am triggered: The Plague Champion has a far lower skill ceiling and skill floor than the Chaos Sorcerer to be absolutely precise. You can get away with so much more fail and still win. Not so as the Sorcerer.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Tex » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 12:59 pm

Correct
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Torpid » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 5:54 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Ok, I am only answering because as a pedantic german I am triggered: The Plague Champion has a far lower skill ceiling and skill floor than the Chaos Sorcerer to be absolutely precise. You can get away with so much more fail and still win. Not so as the Sorcerer.


Skill floor = The lower the less skill is required to be effective.

Skill ceiling = The maximum capacity for good in-game outcomes being rewarded for skillful play. Higher the ceiling, higher the capacity to be rewarded for being skillful.

Lower skill floor for sure, and yeah, probably a lower skill ceiling but not that much so anymore I don't think. Only in those specific MUs where CS is really good.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 7:56 pm

Torpid wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Ok, I am only answering because as a pedantic german I am triggered: The Plague Champion has a far lower skill ceiling and skill floor than the Chaos Sorcerer to be absolutely precise. You can get away with so much more fail and still win. Not so as the Sorcerer.


Skill floor = The lower the less skill is required to be effective.

Skill ceiling = The maximum capacity for good in-game outcomes being rewarded for skillful play. Higher the ceiling, higher the capacity to be rewarded for being skillful.

Lower skill floor for sure, and yeah, probably a lower skill ceiling but not that much so anymore I don't think. Only in those specific MUs where CS is really good.


Torpid, play more PC and see what happens. In fact, I dare you to play any mu and watch how well you recover from heavy losses that would have been gg for any other hero BUT the PC. Tell me how sitting in cover under worship out-shooting anything is high-skill. Or using "Touch of Nurgle" in melee fights, be they counter-initiation or not. How much skill is required to cast a "Noxious Cloud" to disrupt any enemy setup. Plague Champion can get to a point where it is ludacris to approach him but due to him having endless sources of healing, its also not easy to out-pew-pew him. Sorcerer has none of that crazyness. He is on the other hand, and I will give you that, very crafty and using his abilities and globals correctly can have crazy outcomes. It is harder to get this crazy-cart rolling though than it is for the PC.

Let's be honest here. PCs skill ceiling is very low.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Atlas » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 5:04 am

Torpid wrote:Skill floor = The lower the less skill is required to be effective.

Skill ceiling = The maximum capacity for good in-game outcomes being rewarded for skillful play. Higher the ceiling, higher the capacity to be rewarded for being skillful.

Lower skill floor for sure, and yeah, probably a lower skill ceiling but not that much so anymore I don't think. Only in those specific MUs where CS is really good.


Actually you have that wrong. Skill floor is the level a poorly executed [X] performs at. The more guaranteed something, the higher the floor is. So a hero like the WL or w/e would be a high floor, high ceiling if they don't take much effort to be well and be very effective when used well.

In contrast, something like the CS is a low floor, high ceiling when it is terrible unless great execution is involved.

Just clearing up terminology. A lot of the "braindead" heroes would be considered high floor, low ceiling at a minimum.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Torpid » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 6:51 am

Atlas wrote:
Torpid wrote:Skill floor = The lower the less skill is required to be effective.

Skill ceiling = The maximum capacity for good in-game outcomes being rewarded for skillful play. Higher the ceiling, higher the capacity to be rewarded for being skillful.

Lower skill floor for sure, and yeah, probably a lower skill ceiling but not that much so anymore I don't think. Only in those specific MUs where CS is really good.


Actually you have that wrong. Skill floor is the level a poorly executed [X] performs at. The more guaranteed something, the higher the floor is. So a hero like the WL or w/e would be a high floor, high ceiling if they don't take much effort to be well and be very effective when used well.

In contrast, something like the CS is a low floor, high ceiling when it is terrible unless great execution is involved.

Just clearing up terminology. A lot of the "braindead" heroes would be considered high floor, low ceiling at a minimum.


Before you posted this I must admit I had never even thought of using the term "high skill floor" to refer to a hero which is relatively more effective than the standard with next to 0 skill.

I always envisioned the metaphor as being akin to barrier to entry. The skill building. The skill ceiling refers to how high up you can go as you add more and more skill, but without a certain level of skill you will get lackluster (or non-effective) outputs. Which does after a little bit of research appear to be the more common, now-a-days, colloquial interpretation of "skill floor" albeit perhaps mathematically incorrect and not great for the old-schoolers.

In order words I see it as - Skill floor = minimum amount of skill needed to get value out of (or be good with) the hero.

Annnnd upon further research I agree with you. It makes sense mathematically in terms of graphing skill and effectiveness to mean:

Higher the skill ceiling the higher the effectiveness outputted by an input of infinite skill
Higher the skill floor the higher the effectiveness outputted by an input of 0 skill

Even though that wasn't really anything that I was considering at all when contemplating the concept. So it's a weird one. And my idea of "what level of skill is necessary to get onto the floor" should just be referred to as the barriers to entry for 'good' play.

Although, we also note as you imply yourself, 0 skill input is a silly thing to discuss since nobody is that bad. That equates to just afking. And that would give every hero equal skill floor - 0.

So skill floor for conversational purposes is the level of effectiveness achieved from inputting a standard, low amount of skill. Lower the floor, lower the effectiveness for little skill.

The problem here is that this is all relative to the hero in question's actual performance. It isn't guaranteed that just because you can keep improving performance by adding more skill for ages and ages (therefore high skill ceiling) that the hero is more effective than one which has a lower skill ceiling - where skill stops being important sooner, if ultimately that hero just rewards you with more effectiveness for 1 unit of skill. I propose a new term for this - the skill ratio.

Skill ratio = how much effectiveness is granted by 1 unit of skill.

Therefore the chaos sorcerer has high barriers to entry of skillful play, but can improve loads with more skill added, yet in general isn't obviously rewarded for that extra skill in a way other heroes are.

So he has a low skill ratio, a very high skill ceiling and a low skill floor.

In contrast the chaos lord has very low barriers to entry for skillful play, but is a bit straight forward and vs high level players I find is very easy to play around and beat.

So he has a low skill ratio, a medium skill ceiling and a high skill floor.

The plague champion however has similarly small barriers to entry for skillful play as the chaos lord, but is a lot more elaborate in terms of his actual mehcanics. With high skill he has a lot more potential then the chaos lord and can be a lot more powerful.

So I'd say he has a high skill ratio, a high skill ceiling and a high skill floor.

This would mean that in terms of the overall playerbase the plague champion would probably seem the most "OP". Even though theoretically in some MUs the CS would do better if played by a 'perfect player', nearly nobody would consider the CS OP.
Last edited by Torpid on Thu 21 Sep, 2017 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Torpid » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 6:53 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
Torpid wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Ok, I am only answering because as a pedantic german I am triggered: The Plague Champion has a far lower skill ceiling and skill floor than the Chaos Sorcerer to be absolutely precise. You can get away with so much more fail and still win. Not so as the Sorcerer.


Skill floor = The lower the less skill is required to be effective.

Skill ceiling = The maximum capacity for good in-game outcomes being rewarded for skillful play. Higher the ceiling, higher the capacity to be rewarded for being skillful.

Lower skill floor for sure, and yeah, probably a lower skill ceiling but not that much so anymore I don't think. Only in those specific MUs where CS is really good.


Torpid, play more PC and see what happens. In fact, I dare you to play any mu and watch how well you recover from heavy losses that would have been gg for any other hero BUT the PC. Tell me how sitting in cover under worship out-shooting anything is high-skill. Or using "Touch of Nurgle" in melee fights, be they counter-initiation or not. How much skill is required to cast a "Noxious Cloud" to disrupt any enemy setup. Plague Champion can get to a point where it is ludacris to approach him but due to him having endless sources of healing, its also not easy to out-pew-pew him. Sorcerer has none of that crazyness. He is on the other hand, and I will give you that, very crafty and using his abilities and globals correctly can have crazy outcomes. It is harder to get this crazy-cart rolling though than it is for the PC.

Let's be honest here. PCs skill ceiling is very low.


I think the PCs skill ceiling is very high. At top level he is just a fucking beast. For the reasons you describe and more. Sure he is easy to use fairly effetivenly with little skill and given the terminological clarity Atlas provided, that means he has a HIGH skill floor or low barriers to entry for good play. But in terms of what is the maximum potential effectiveness the best player ever could show with the PC? I think the PC has all the tools he needs to handle pretty much every other hero other than the warlock in a "best possible player" vs "best possible player" kind of situation.
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Re: Is Warlock the only viable Eldar champ ?

Postby Toilailee » Fri 22 Sep, 2017 10:39 am

@OP

If anything WSE is the most universally viable eldar hero since as a funny and angry pr0 once said "every map is WSE map". WSE is maybe the best hero in the game for map control, which what half the game is about (at least in 1v1s), he can easily bleed models, he has access to great crowd control and even heavy melee.

Warlock has some nice AoE abilities so he can wreck squishy blobs and he's the only eldar hero that can tank properly. With merciless witchblade he can also easily bleed tacs and take on heroes, while also draining them out of energy (that's why it's also great vs asm). He also has access to some nice support abilities, warp throw is kind of a skill shot ability that's really deadly in the right hands and heart of darkness makes banshees reeaally strong in the early game.

Farseer might be the weakest in direct combat ability, but in the right hands I think she has the highest potential out of all eldar heroes. Srsly HarrehPottah rekt me with this hero so many times back in the day when I was at the top of my game. Farseer has access to so many great support abilities that she's one of the most flexible heroes in the game and she can basically respond to any kind of composition. She can also tank to a degree and time field is one of the best late game abilities.

Couldn't find a better replay, but here's a blast from the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iGzBwqMuC4
Ps. Holy shit it's been 6 years already since that game. :o
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