Anti-building/garrison options

Strategy and L2P topics.
ElSlayer
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Anti-building/garrison options

Postby ElSlayer » Wed 02 Aug, 2017 3:20 pm

What anti-building (gen bashing) and anti-garrison tools do Eldar and Tyranids have IN EARLY GAME (before T2)?
Are grenades good in taking out garrisons?
What about Spore Mines?
Who's better at taking generator down - Hormies or Termies? If they are both unupgraded? Both upgraded?
Kvn
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby Kvn » Wed 02 Aug, 2017 5:58 pm

For T1 Anti-Garrison, Eldar have Dire Avenger grenades from their Aspect upgrade. It will usually take two-ish to wipe a squad that is in a building, but a nice trick is to drop the grenade just outside the doorway to the structure. It will only do slightly less damage if they stay inside, and if they panic and try to get out, it will probably insta-kill the squad since they will exit the structure in a condensed group and stand almost on top of the grenade itself.

T1 gen-bashing though, Eldar aren't great at. They don't have any flamer unit, and their individual squads are fairly bad at it. Usually either just have to pick apart at the enemy farm a little at a time, or commit when they're out of position. They get Wraithguard and Fire Dragons later on though, both of which are really good at killing generators.

Tyranids can counter garrison early on with either Barbed Strangler Warrior Brood, or with Spore Mines either from HQ or a called up Spire. It should be noted that neither of these are hardcore anti-garrison, so Tyranids will suffer a bit from enemies who utilize their garrison play well. It's usually better to avoid areas with structures if possible, or snare with Crippling poison when it looks like they're headed towards a building.

As for gens, they usually take advantage of weight of fire and numbers thanks to their aggressive play-style. Again, they don't have a dedicated flamer unit, so they're not super high-end anti-gen units. They are typically better at it than Eldar though since they're able to push harder in most cases. For a 1:1 scenario, pretty sure it's upgraded Horms > upgraded Terms > unupgraded Horms > unupgraded Term, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 02 Aug, 2017 9:36 pm

Eldar

As Kvn said, a grenade tossed at the entrance to most garrisons is your best solution. If the enemy stays it will take out a huge chunk of his hp, and if he flees he risks his entire unit being at the center of the grenade's damage radius.

A warlock's immolator does 2x dmg to units in a garrison IIRC, so if you're playing WL and suspect the enemy is going to be using garrisons, get that item out fast. Also, if time is not absolutely of the essence, rangers do unmitigated damage to units in garrisons, so they are your next best option.

Nids

Nids anti-garrison is all-around subpar in T1. The best advice is to just not get drawn into engagements near buildings when possible. When you must, spores will do decent damage to units in a garrison, but will not smoke them immediately like a well-placed grenade (and cost power and req). BSW will also get the job done, but are also vulnerable to suppression.


As for the gens, nids and eldar don't have any hardcore gen bashing options. As Eldar, setting up a few shields and gunning them down with DA is fairly reliable (maybe cover them with a shuricannon). As nids, you can distract the enemy with the bulk of your force away from the gens, then send in a horm squad to rip them apart. Also, 2 upgraded termagants and a ravener squad deal pretty impressive piercing dps and can melt gens fairly quickly.
ElSlayer
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby ElSlayer » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 9:56 am

Allright, I got the picture. Thanks you guys for your answers!

I've just saw these changes in 2.7.1 Test build thread (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3131):

Spore Mines:
Spore_pvp damage multiplier values have been changed as followed:
Damage vs building from 1 to 5.
Damage vs building_light from 1 to 2.
Damage vs building_defence from 1 to 5.
Damage vs building_ig_turret from 1 to 5.
Damage vs commander from 1 to 1.5.
Damage vs heavy_infantry from 1 to 1.5.
Damage vs super_heavy_infantry from 1 to 1.5.
Damage vs garrison from 1 to 1.25.

This info is quite confusing:
1) Codex says that Spore Mines do Spore damage type and in changelog it is called Spore_pvp. Is it just typo or it would be a new damage type?
2) If it is a typo - Spore damage type currently already have x2 modifier againt Garrison cover type, but changelog says "from 1".

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype.php?dam=spore

Can somebody give clarification on this?
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Oddnerd
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 9:26 pm

Many values in the codex are out of date. The patch notes should be assumed to be the correct ones.
ElSlayer
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby ElSlayer » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 12:48 am

Oddnerd wrote:Many values in the codex are out of date. The patch notes should be assumed to be the correct ones.

Sad to hear that. I like information resources like that.
ElSlayer
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby ElSlayer » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 1:30 am

I've tried spores and found them good enough. Caught those pesky CSM on retreat later with LA ^^
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Torpid
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby Torpid » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 8:01 am

ElSlayer wrote:I've tried spores and found them good enough. Caught those pesky CSM on retreat later with LA ^^


Well, they'll be 50% stronger vs stuff like that (csm - HI) in buildings next patch. And the cool thing is that if you use them enough you will actually be able to topple the buildings themselves with them.

The earlier point about them being 2 vs garrison cover atm, and next patch 1 to 1.25, I believe that's an error on the patchnotes. Should be 1.25 higher than atm, which actually would be 2 to 2.5.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
ElSlayer
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby ElSlayer » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 8:52 am

Torpid wrote:
ElSlayer wrote:I've tried spores and found them good enough. Caught those pesky CSM on retreat later with LA ^^


Well, they'll be 50% stronger vs stuff like that (csm - HI) in buildings next patch. And the cool thing is that if you use them enough you will actually be able to topple the buildings themselves with them.

The earlier point about them being 2 vs garrison cover atm, and next patch 1 to 1.25, I believe that's an error on the patchnotes. Should be 1.25 higher than atm, which actually would be 2 to 2.5.

Yeah, that's makes sense. Thank you.

My problem is when enemy takes garrison near my power farm. On some maps units can fire at the generators themselves from there.
I hope that 25% damage buff would be enough to take care of that.
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Torpid
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Re: Anti-building/garrison options

Postby Torpid » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 10:08 am

ElSlayer wrote:
My problem is when enemy takes garrison near my power farm. On some maps units can fire at the generators themselves from there.
I hope that 25% damage buff would be enough to take care of that.


With any luck them actually doing 5x as much damage to buildings per explosion will mean if you are really bothered by it you can actually level the building itself to prevent it beforehand.
Edit - Looking at most of the garrisons on green tooth gorge in particular they have 2500hp. So, 125dmg per spore mine won't be enough to make them a cost effective means of levelling buildings especialyl since we are struggled to find a way to implement allowing units to attack non-garrisoned garrisons.

Might have to change it to 10x damage so they do 250 per pop.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!

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