How do transports work? Are they worth it?

[Philippus12]

Hi there,

I as a pretty new player feel like I have understood most of the aspects of the game, however when it comes to map mobility I mostly rely on FC/Term with teleporters, ASM and Scouts and have ignored razorbacks almost completely.

When should you build transports and when should you not?

In mainly see eldar and IG rush falcon/chimera which then turns the game into: kill the transportvehicle for GG or get rekt by it.

I understand that transport vehicles are mainly beneficial on large maps but imo they dont bring enough for the cost and losing them punishes you way too hard.

What do you guys think?

Regards,

Phillippus12

PS: Wasnt sure whether this is strategy or balance, so I put it in general

[Dark Riku]

You're not asking for a balance change. The Strategy section would have been the proper place.

The razorback is a good choice in a couple of circumstances.
When you are ahead in tech you can apply lots of pressure with an early vehicle, gaining map control in the process and or pushing to the genfarm.
You can use it to protect a setupteam against jump troops by parking it right next to the setupteam and embarking as soon as they get jumped on.
You are also forcing your enemy to invest in anti-vehicles units. This might mean they have to invest resources they rather spend elsewhere.
In the meantime you can have your own counter ready or just keep it in the back of your army while it supports with some DPS and the reinforce aura.

[Philippus12]

Oh so the balance discussion is more of a: "I think XY is overpowered, pls balance" forum^^
Noted, will try to avoid mistakes like that in the future.

So its basically more about extending a lead than about creating one.
Doesnt that sort of go in line with my point about them not being worth it? Atleast when equal or behind.

Protecting Setup teams, forcing AV and the reinforce aura seem like things I should pay more attention to.

[Oddnerd]

Riku has listed the most important ways in which a razorback can be used as SM. I would just add that in general a transport like the razorback/falcon/chimera can be used the way most IG players use their sentinels in T1 - you use it's steady DPS to harass enemy infantry blobs and kill as many models as you can. This allows you to bleed the enemy of some resources while you can repair the damage to your vehicle for free.

[Dark Riku]

Oh so the balance discussion is more of a: "I think XY is overpowered, pls balance" forum^^
Noted, will try to avoid mistakes like that in the future.

Not only that. Just wondering if something is balanced would go there too.
But this to me seemed more like a strategy thread as you are asking how/why to use a razorback in this instance.
Balance threads should carry a lot more weight from the initial poster. --> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2099

So its basically more about extending a lead than about creating one.
Doesnt that sort of go in line with my point about them not being worth it? Atleast when equal or behind.

Not entirely. It depends on the situation.
It's a great way to swing a game around versus Tyranids in 1v1 for example as I find their AV to destroy a mobile vehicle quite abysmal.
But on the other hand you do not want to get a melee dreadnought as it more likely than not will get eaten alive by all the heavy melee Tyranids have.
It would also be great versus an opponent who doesn't have the economy and or build order to deal with a vehicle in a fast fashion.
The razorback is a very solid all round choice come T2 imo as it offers various things. That still doesn't mean you should always get it though.
DoW2 is a very complex game. A lot depends on the exact situation. I'm trying to sketch some of the big lines here.

[Psycho]

Transports fulfill various roles depending on the faction, that's why some see them more often like Eldar and IG who benefit the most. IG benefits due to the cheap and disposable guardsmen synergizing with a mobile reinforce point and the chimera getting more DPS with a unit inside should you need to put the guardsmen in for mobility or protection from too much anti-infantry, and also having the retreat point upgrade. Eldar have a transport that is good against all targets with a 28DPS to vehicles and most other infantry, without mentioning the additional DPS from its other two guns and synergy with triple DA builds, so the transport can not only act as a transport but counter other early vehicles and walkers.

Razorbacks are another thing entirely since you shouldn't be bleeding in the first place with SM enough to warrant a razorback purchase for a mobile reinforce point alone, but Riku has already mentioned their benefits since the razorback has the same DPS as assault cannon dreadnought, or at least in paper.

[Philippus12]

you use it's steady DPS to harass enemy infantry blobs and kill as many models as you can

That is something I definetly should give a try.

Not only that. Just wondering if something is balanced would go there too.
But this to me seemed more like a strategy thread as you are asking how/why to use a razorback in this instance.
Balance threads should carry a lot more weight from the initial poster. --> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2099

That sums it up quite nicely, will however have a look at that guideline aswell, thx.

Thx for the insight against Nids, I usually like to play Devs against them so I guess Razorbacks should be a solid choice aswell then.

The razorback is a very solid all round choice come T2 imo as it offers various things. That still doesn't mean you should always get it though.
DoW2 is a very complex game. A lot depends on the exact situation. I'm trying to sketch some of the big lines here.

You are all helping greatly, of course every unit choice can be countered, depends on situation etc.

[quote=Sorcerer] [..] IG benefits due to the cheap and disposable guardsmen synergizing with a mobile reinforce point [...] Eldar have a transport that is good against all targets with a 28DPS to vehicles and most other infantry [...]

Razorbacks are another thing entirely since you shouldn't be bleeding in the first place with SM enough to warrant a razorback purchase for a mobile reinforce point alone [/quote]

My thoughts in a nutshell here

[Nurland]

You shouldn't bleed as SM but it is basically inevitable in T2.

You will most likely have to make trades and RB helps your staying power a lot.

[Toilailee]

I have a replay if you're interested. Not my greatest game overall but a razorback allowed me to make a comeback and I got a lot done with it in this game.

[Philippus12]

I have a replay if you're interested. Not my greatest game overall but a razorback allowed me to make a comeback and I got a lot done with it in this game.

Ill have a look at it

EDIT:

Great example for almost all of Rikus points. Defend setup team against jump troop, map mobility, force AV etc.
However I think without the tech marine repair it would have been quite a loss (since I mainly play FC at the moment I will have to postpone getting experience with that).

Still: thanks alot!

[egewithin]

Just a bit more spesific explanation for each faction.

Razorback : It should be used more like a car rather than a reinforcement point. Reinforcing SM models and keep fighting is a big mistake. 75 req for only 1 model I say, that is a lot if you run with double Tacs around. Just get insade of that thing and back off in case of a threat for you. Than come back. Don't be afraid to use smoke bomb for cover. As Riku said, Razorback is handy for power bashes. Much handyer if you play on a big map.

I prefer using it if I play with Techmarine or Apothecary. Techmarine gives the extra repair support with Scouts. And he has pretty hand wargear like Bionics for anti-melee and some really cool counters like Melta and Plasma Gun. Apothecary is very fun to use with his bolter and keeping him in a safe distance. Just use him to heal infantry around and decrease your bleeding.

Falcon : Falcon is a big pain in ass. It's like the best transport in the game, maybe just loosing to Land Raider Redeemer. Has very good damage, also does some respectible anti-vehicle damage, useful if you want to chase a vehicle. Helps a lot to power bash with his weapons. Fast like every other transport of cource. It is much worse in T3. It has energy shield, with good micro, it is nearly impossible to kill.

For mobility, not an issue for Eldar. It is much better if you have an alien army mate like nids and orks. You both can use this transport and stay on the field.

Wartrukk : If we ignore his lack of durability and damage potential, Wartrukk must be used for flanking around enemy lines and carriying your infantry around. It is specially dealy if you use double Sluggaz with it. Keeps reinforcing and keeps fighting. Pretty amazing synergy. Wartrukk is also ( somehow ) much better with getting away thing than other vehicles.

Chimera : Chimea is critical for IG. It gives the durability you lack of. And the biggest advantage is the Guardsmen themselfs. It doesn't matter how many man you loose really. Improved repair support, improved reinforcement, and with a little of hero damage buffs, Gurdsmen becamse extreamly dangerous. Bleeding becames an issue if you use Storm Troopers since they are basicly made of expensive paper. Its not important if you use Catachans, don't worry, they are not expensive to reinforce.

[Philippus12]

Just a bit more spesific explanation for each faction.

Razorback : It should be used more like a car rather than a reinforcement point. Reinforcing SM models and keep fighting is a big mistake. 75 req for only 1 model I say, that is a lot if you run with double Tacs around. Just get insade of that thing and back off in case of a threat for you. Than come back. Don't be afraid to use smoke bomb for cover. As Riku said, Razorback is handy for power bashes. Much handyer if you play on a big map.

I prefer using it if I play with Techmarine or Apothecary. Techmarine gives the extra repair support with Scouts. And he has pretty hand wargear like Bionics for anti-melee and some really cool counters like Melta and Plasma Gun. Apothecary is very fun to use with his bolter and keeping him in a safe distance. Just use him to heal infantry around and decrease your bleeding.

Falcon : Falcon is a big pain in ass. It's like the best transport in the game, maybe just loosing to Land Raider Redeemer. Has very good damage, also does some respectible anti-vehicle damage, useful if you want to chase a vehicle. Helps a lot to power bash with his weapons. Fast like every other transport of cource. It is much worse in T3. It has energy shield, with good micro, it is nearly impossible to kill.

For mobility, not an issue for Eldar. It is much better if you have an alien army mate like nids and orks. You both can use this transport and stay on the field.

Wartrukk : If we ignore his lack of durability and damage potential, Wartrukk must be used for flanking around enemy lines and carriying your infantry around. It is specially dealy if you use double Sluggaz with it. Keeps reinforcing and keeps fighting. Pretty amazing synergy. Wartrukk is also ( somehow ) much better with getting away thing than other vehicles.

Chimera : Chimea is critical for IG. It gives the durability you lack of. And the biggest advantage is the Guardsmen themselfs. It doesn't matter how many man you loose really. Improved repair support, improved reinforcement, and with a little of hero damage buffs, Gurdsmen becamse extreamly dangerous. Bleeding becames an issue if you use Storm Troopers since they are basicly made of expensive paper. Its not important if you use Catachans, don't worry, they are not expensive to reinforce.

THAT is exactly what I needed.
Apart from the fact that I had no idea of Wartrukks, it pretty much sums up what I was thinking previously.
A big thank you to you too.

Wasnt there a thread about things everyone should know? I feel like this part should be included there.

[egewithin]

I suggested the forum for some unit guides, they said do it Firat, I made like 2, asked their opinios but I had no reaction later on, so I give up.

Can continue if they want, not an issue for me. Just need to know I won't spend time for something won't come to life.

[Philippus12]

I personally loved that focussed knowledge and experience.
I will most likely pass this on to other players I know with similar issues.

If you enjoy making these I will definetly pay attention to them

[Ordie]

Just to add to Firatwithin's list: Ordo Malleus has the Rhino which is an anti vehicle option, with a twin link lascannon.

It also has a smoke grenade that reduces incoming and outgoing ranged damage by 80%. A funny trick is to drive up to any ranged blob, like triple Mark of Tzeentch CSM, or 2-3 raveners with venom brood, drop the smoke grenade, and unload purifiers and brother captain in the middle of a blob that has 80% less damage output. IMPORTANT NOTE, the opponent will not find it as funny as you.

The Rhino also offers 70 piercing dps for 350/45 with the turret upgrade. Compare that the Grey Knight Dreadnought that offers 52 piercing dps for 450/120. You can use the Rhino to bleed away Dire Avengers, Gaunts, Gants, and with the move speed, even banshees with some care. I've also seen them bleed Genestealers, but that can be a risky move.

[Philippus12]

I guess forgetting Ordo Malleus is pretty common.

Interesting to see though that the Rhino offers more DPS than the Dreadnought.


BTW: Thx @whoever moved my post

[Aetherion]

Transport are also great as a shelter for your guys to hop in when targeted by nukes, AoE or simply being out of position. Just be careful about disembarking everything and pathblocking your own transport.

Edit: with the exception of Eldritches cos those wreck face on a single point.

[fe_]

Transport are also great as a shelter for your guys to hop in when targeted by nukes.

https://youtu.be/sNqgRx8aLsI?t=155

But yes you can dodge aoe stuff by jumping in and out. You can also flank set-up teams or just drive into them, but be careful.

[Torpid]

Transport are also great as a shelter for your guys to hop in when targeted by nukes.

https://youtu.be/sNqgRx8aLsI?t=155

But yes you can dodge aoe stuff by jumping in and out. You can also flank set-up teams or just drive into them, but be careful.

Well that's just a bug with eldritch - if a vehicle has units inside it and hit by an eldritch the vehicle and everything inside will be immediately destroyed.

[The Licking Boogyman]

who needs battlewagon anyways

[Toilailee]

who needs battlewagon anyways

I do! Such a fun unit to use, and it used to be the best unit in the game before some well deserved nerfs.

[lolzarz]

The Chimera is particularly useful. Normally, guardsmen bleed heavily and are somewhat easy to force off outside heavy cover. However, because fully upgraded guardsmen reinforce 3 at a time, it makes driving the guardsmen off the field very difficult without killing the chimera. However, the guardsmen also repair the chimera, making killing the chimera harder than you'd think. Infantry units inside the chimera can also fire the lasguns it has on the side and the damage is quite substantial. I can't speak much about the others, but a chimera is necessary for the majority of Imperial Guard play in tier 2.

[Philippus12]

No need to tell me how long chimeras can survive...

Had a particulartly tanky one getting repped by 3 guard squads.

100% tilt xD