Retaking a position as IG

[Soberson]

All said below concerns team games (3v3) experience and mostly applies to t1.5

On a long road of gitting gud I stumbled on major problem as for: how to retake lost lane position as Imperial Guard?
More often than not I tend to use sort of a master build army composition (Lord G - 2 GM - 1 Sentinel - 1 Spotters - 1 HWT). Sentinel play usually allows me to take over 1st engagement just by how this unit is. Depending on opponent i get either HWT or Spotters first and dig in trenches. Long story short double team comes and kicks me out what often leads to a powerbash.

At this point it seems that I am left with no actual line breakers: opponent will meet me before I can take a cover (GM squads start bleeding immediately), taking a flank with a sentinel and "Move! Move! Move!" often involves stepping into enemy lines and being caught out of position again. With that said if opponent buys set-up team into my Spotters there's usually not much trouble but it does happen quite rarely (as opposite to having to deal with jump troops). Other option is an obvious tech up but it does require rebuilding a genfarm AND defending it with what I have while map becomes red. There's also another alternative in a form of going for a double team yourself but it means losing your powerfarm if you haven't already lost it and in the worst case having a frontline even closer to your natural resource points.

So what does work for you? Any particular veteran advice or a tip?

[Torpid]

Well never go for a universal build. That defies everything that DOW is about.

If your foe is being too defensive with ranged blobs spotters are the way to go and HWT should really prevent them from pushing you off... unless they are SM in which case you need cats in T1 because of scout nades from infiltration.

If they get jump troops, especially as the LG you need to get catachans. There isn't much of an alternative really. IF you are going spotters+hwt vs jump teams it is no wonder you lose.

But yeah IG is not meant to be good at taking ground. It is good at holding ground. Perhaps ask your allies to help you push since you are weaker at it and remind them that afterwards they may piss off because IG are good at holding ground.

[Oddnerd]

As Torpid said, avoid the universal build. You should have a build that adapts to the faction and composition of your opponents. I don't play as LG, but my impression of him is that even the sentinel does not have to be an auto-purchase - if an IG commander can field 3 GM, it is him. At first glance, it seems like your army is extremely weak against melee - my LC can get his power sword and the INQ can get the pyre or the crossbow, but your LG doesn't have any answer to an ASM unit (stomping with the sentinel buys you a few seconds, but that doesnt mean much in T1 against a HI unit).

It is hard to give good advice on how to re-take a position because every situation is different, and the fact that IG T1.5 are not not well designed for taking a fortified position to begin with. Taking control of an area your opponent has entrenched in requires either shock troops (fast moving units with high DPS/cost), which is the exact opposite of the IG attrition-based army with high HP/cost and low DPS/cost units... or overwhelming firepower, which IG does not get until tier 2.

It might be easier to get non-vague advice if you directed people to actual replays so we can assess the situation in detail.

[egewithin]

You said T1.5 right?

Man, do they start defending somewhere that early? That should be a mistake. Split them up then. Go bash power somewhere else. They have to send units to your army. That will make enemy defence line much easyer to approach.

IG doesn't have any line breakers in T1. I used to try it with Sentinal to stomp Devestator, I had a few good shots but not useful for 3v3. As I said, you are not a line breaker. You are a line holder. Let someone else to take the lead for you and you give him massive fire support that he needs. Also, Lord General is the worst hero for this situation. Hellfury or Commisar Flare would be amazing to break lines.

But if you need to break that line in T2, just in case of a campain like a beacon or a bunker, drop a Heavy Turrent in front of their line or back of that line at the beggining of T2. I used this amazingly clevar tactic that I studied for 8 hours and realised it pays off.

[Soberson]

Thanks for the insight! I am trying to play more around Catachans and pulling their use off feels pretty satisfying. What pushes me off from using them more often is that shotgun blast sometimes cost 80 power. That makes me always blow another 40 energy on something beforehand and honestly kinda frustrating on its own.

Man, do they start defending somewhere that early? That should be a mistake. Split them up then. Go bash power somewhere else. They have to send units to your army. That will make enemy defence line much easyer to approach.

One particular match up I can refer to is against Ravener Alpha who constantly made his holes around natural req / power point area. I had to chase him to his hole, blow the hole, set up and start the retake only to discover that he's still moving in the back of my lines.

[The Licking Boogyman]

Well i think, catas are the beat option against melee for Tier 1.5 and well combine it with suppression you should be OK or get double suppression depends also on the hero you got.

[PaperBaG]

Fast Chimera yo

[Toilailee]

Fast Chimera yo

Fast warboss yo

[PhatE]

Fast Chimera yo

Fast warboss yo

Fast catachans yo

[Deuce Bigalow]

Fast Chimera yo

Fast warboss yo

Fast catachans yo

Fast yo yo

[Psycho]

Fast warboss yo

Fast catachans yo

Fast yo yo

Plot twist, the mekboy's global is actually a fast yo yo

[egewithin]

Fast catachans yo

Fast yo yo

Plot twist, the mekboy's global is actually a fast yo yo

get gut u all.

[Psycho]

Now hold up, after getting PTSD from a 3v3 against a team with a techmarine pulling a beacon and turret combo on mid, isn't the spotters' incendiary shell supposed to be a counter against those buildings? apart from the initial damage, the DoT does literally zero damage to either beacon or turret after testing it against AI.

If the codex doesn't lie to me, the turret and beacon have building_defence armor, and they have 500hp and 750hp respectively.

Call an incendiary shell to the target location, burning enemy units over time. Up to 20 flame damage in radius 10 followed by 7 ability flame DPS for 20 seconds. Range 65, cooldown 40 seconds. Requires the Incendiary Shells upgrade.

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... =flame_pvp
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... bility_pvp

Both do 5 damage multiplier, so in theory the shell should do 20*5 + 7*5*20 = 800 damage, so it should kill them unless they're being repaired, but it barely does anything

Was this intended? Because it should make IG more viable against defences involving turrets and beacons if so.

[Tinibombini]

Now hold up, after getting PTSD from a 3v3 against a team with a techmarine pulling a beacon and turret combo on mid, isn't the spotters' incendiary shell supposed to be a counter against those buildings? apart from the initial damage, the DoT does literally zero damage to either beacon or turret after testing it against AI.

If the codex doesn't lie to me, the turret and beacon have building_defence armor, and they have 500hp and 750hp respectively.

Call an incendiary shell to the target location, burning enemy units over time. Up to 20 flame damage in radius 10 followed by 7 ability flame DPS for 20 seconds. Range 65, cooldown 40 seconds. Requires the Incendiary Shells upgrade.

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... =flame_pvp
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... bility_pvp

Both do 5 damage multiplier, so in theory the shell should do 20*5 + 7*5*20 = 800 damage, so it should kill them unless they're being repaired, but it barely does anything

Was this intended? Because it should make IG more viable against defences involving turrets and beacons if so.

I'm guessing that the multiplier for flame ability is wrong. Sorc's dark flames does initial flame damage and then flame damage over time (not flame ability) and it will wreck a beacon.

[Aetherion]

Now hold up, after getting PTSD from a 3v3 against a team with a techmarine pulling a beacon and turret combo on mid, isn't the spotters' incendiary shell supposed to be a counter against those buildings? apart from the initial damage, the DoT does literally zero damage to either beacon or turret after testing it against AI.

If the codex doesn't lie to me, the turret and beacon have building_defence armor, and they have 500hp and 750hp respectively.

Call an incendiary shell to the target location, burning enemy units over time. Up to 20 flame damage in radius 10 followed by 7 ability flame DPS for 20 seconds. Range 65, cooldown 40 seconds. Requires the Incendiary Shells upgrade.

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... =flame_pvp
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... bility_pvp

Both do 5 damage multiplier, so in theory the shell should do 20*5 + 7*5*20 = 800 damage, so it should kill them unless they're being repaired, but it barely does anything

Was this intended? Because it should make IG more viable against defences involving turrets and beacons if so.

Sounds like a good change actually if it isn't yet intended

[MaxPower]

And it would make turrets and beacons entirely useless vs ig, cause the cast range on spotters is so large that they dont even have to be in the firing range of the turret unlike the immolator. Just saying.

[Psycho]

And it would make turrets and beacons entirely useless vs ig, cause the cast range on spotters is so large that they dont even have to be in the firing range of the turret unlike the immolator. Just saying.

The smoke shell allows them to get within range of the turret without getting shot even if the cast range of the incendiary shell was chopped by half.

Either way, allow me to crunch some numbers.

Initial flame damage of the shell is 20, multiplied by a modifier of 5 making it 100. The subsequent DoT is 7, multiplied by 20 seconds, multiplied by 5 damage multiplier, so a resulting DoT total damage of 700 through 35DPS, with a grand total of 800 with initial + DoT.

Against a turret that a techmarine repairs at a rate of 10hp/s assuming he starts JUST as the shell drops, it'd mean:

100 initial damage + (35DPS - 10 due to repair) * 20 = 600 damage
A beacon does not go down, and a turret goes down.

Adding the starting scout for repairs, you get
100 initial damage + (35DPS - 20 due to repair) * 20 = 400 damage
Neither building goes down, and after the shell drops it'd require an actual follow-up

If he goes for a double scout start
100 initial damage + (35DPS - 30 due to repair) * 20 = 200 damage
Self-explanatory

This would end up resulting in the spotter having to drop a smoke shell on top of the turret and all of the IG's forces having to commit, and since the incendiary shell unlocks in T2 I can't really theorize a situation like an early game engagement with a spotter first purchase vs a quick turret.

Apart from that, I can imagine the matchup forcing a spotter purchase near immediately due to the risk of the techmarine dropping a turret anywhere for 80 req less than a spotter squad, which could be exploited. A turret+beacon combo would need two spotters unless you manage to drive off the space marine army enough to kill the beacon on your own with what's left. The spotter will render the turret useless, yes, but the turret is also taking up both of the spotter's abilities which have over half a minute cooldown, and a squad with a little over a single tac model DPS isn't gonna help a lot.

This isn't even taking into account the fact that the smoke shell also lasts for 10 seconds when the incendiary shell needs 20 seconds to do its full damage. As soon as the smoke ends, the turret can start suppressing again. In that case, if we account for the smoke shell before the turret starts shooting and suppressing whatever's in front, we get:

100 initial damage + (35DPS - 10 due to repair) * 10 = 350 damage before smoke wears off

100 initial damage + (35DPS - 20 due to repair) * 10 = 250 damage etc

100 initial damage + (35DPS - 30 due to repair) * 10 = 150 damage etc

Again, this is in T2, so I'm not even accounting for anything else like a devastator being placed in a position to shoot at your advancing army while still far away enough to not be affected by the smoke. If he does after you went for double spotters, that's still disabling him for just 10 seconds before it wears off, and if you have to drop a shell on him to disrupt him that's an incendiary shell not dropped on the turret or the beacon. If you had some other disruptor like catachans, you're disrupting him for a few seconds before it sets up again, and you'd have to choose on whether to shoot the turret or the devastators, not both.

If it's a 3v3 with multiple squads able to repair, you're fucked. A turret or beacon left alone is dead meat, however, which would be the main benefit. You can still pull a turret or beacon against IG, but it'll be harder, and in T1 all of this isn't even relevant.

[Tinibombini]

Adding the starting scout for repairs, you get
100 initial damage + (35DPS - 20 due to repair) * 20 = 400 damage
Neither building goes down, and after the shell drops it'd require an actual follow-up

If he goes for a double scout start
100 initial damage + (35DPS - 30 due to repair) * 20 = 200 damage
Self-explanatory

Just keep in mind that scouts can't tank 700 flame damage. They can repair for a bit but will need to pull out.

[Psycho]

Just keep in mind that scouts can't tank 700 flame damage. They can repair for a bit but will need to pull out.

Yes, and assuming it lands right on the turret/beacon to the point they can not repair it from any angle without taking damage (I could not find the range of the repair ability, unfortunately), they need to repair it for a bit before the threshold at which the turret survives the totallity of the damage is passed. I'm also unsure if their elite training regen is still active at such time, which would have them tank only 4.5DPS due to the 2.5hp/s regen. They don't need to heal the full damage either way, just keep it alive past the damage taken by the flame and the IG army that will commit to bring it down. If they're not repairing, they're throwing grenades, shotgun blasts, or picking off models from important squads like catachans or the spotters themselves.

I don't think the squad itself needs to be entirely within the range of the flame area either, so one or two models could be taking the damage instead of the whole squad and, if desperately needed to repair it to keep it alive, a few model losses would only incur a req-only reinforce rather than the loss of the turret. This is both assuming that the scouts don't have the sniper rifle upgrade AND that the model that takes the damage isn't the die-last model, in which case it's a model taking 7DPS with a 2.5hp/s regen rate to counter it and three other models that will start sharing damage with 2.5 regen each. Again, pure theory, can't know how it'll play out and if the scouts won't be focused down by the advancing IG army or if the beacon is also close enough to add more hp regen to the equation, but this'd also affect a beacon behind a shotblocker so it's not just throwing words around.

As much as we can throw ideas around I don't think we'll end up with a clear result until it's tested, really.

[Dark Riku]

Sure, just park 2 scouts and your TM right next to your structures at all times at the same time (how?), that will win you the game