LC vs PC

[HARRYY]

Simpe example of how its impossibvle to beat a good PC-Player (DOJ)HUUAAA (top 30 Player)

hes EASILY going with only 20 power T1 (nade-tics), while I spent 0 power. Still, first to field a BLOODCRUSHER he wasted like dogshit..... so stupid. as chaos you dont even need to play catious, because ..... closely followed by PM and bloodLetters.... both, being ustoppable if you can win vs. a monkey in chess.

I dont get this. Chaos ECO flows like crazyyy.. I had no chance coming to his farm..... If I spent more than 0 power, Id really be as5fUcK3d by this stupid spearhead bloodcrusher....

So, whatever I tried Yet against PC ...... leads to defeat... spending 0 power, or investing power..... If I cannot touch his generators, I cannot do anything. thats stupid. Chaos roster is VERY versatile, HIGH DPS but durable enough to deal with pewpew-men.

Back in vanilla I was pretty good at beating chaos......also PC. But this really BS.

Suggestions welcome. Maybe I missed a certain strategy?!

[Atlas]

Is anybody else having issues with the replay? I've tried working it but it doesn't show up on my replay list :/

[BbBoS]

Replay doesn't work for me either

[Oddnerd]

How experienced are you at this game (how many hours)? On an equal-skill basis, the PC vs LC does tend to favour the PC, but not to the extent that you claim. The PC and the Chaos roster in general have lots of low-effort ways to punish the high-model/low-hp nature of the IG roster, but as someone who has beaten PCs who I would say are roughly in my skill bracket, I think you exaggerating the extent of the problem. As you become more experienced with LC you will find ways to work around all the cheap chaos tactics.

[Cyris]

How experienced are you at this game (how many hours)? On an equal-skill basis, the PC vs LC does tend to favour the PC, but not to the extent that you claim. The PC and the Chaos roster in general have lots of low-effort ways to punish the high-model/low-hp nature of the IG roster, but as someone who has beaten PCs who I would say are roughly in my skill bracket, I think you exaggerating the extent of the problem. As you become more experienced with LC you will find ways to work around all the cheap chaos tactics.

I agree with this 100%

[Takadekadaka]

Since so many people are having trouble watching the replay, you should either repost it, or failing that, you should record the replay live and perhaps comment on what you struggle with.

[HARRYY]

hey, im sorry. I have to check the replay once I'm home again.

-- I Play ELITE for 5 weeks now and I was top 30 in the 1v1 ladder pretty fast. Now I lost more often because I tried different BOs. So currently im on rank 40 in the 1v1 ladder. I dont know if this is considered "noob". But I see that the top 50 is filled with pretty decent Players currently. Big influx of good Players.......

I was quite good in vanilla, had like 1200 hours in vanilla. maybe 50-70 in ELITE.

[Codex]

I feel like PC is pretty favoured in a straight up fight, but IG has the mobility advantage in 1v1, which goes some way to making the match up more even. It can be hard to break down a PC's line in a team game though.

[Dark Riku]

[DoJ]Huaaaaaaa has 12 games recorded on the ladder... That's not a reliable figure to go on.
Fixed replay would be nice. I wish Noisy would play some IG in 1v1 again, then we'd only get nerf suggestions for IG again.

If you spend 0 power in T1 you should expect to lose the early T1 map war. Map control is a big thing in 1v1, unnoded power points generate you a lot of power. Go heavier T1 and push for the enemy power farm. He spend no power besides 20 on nade launchers? Probably went 2 CSM? So there were no havocs or nm's to stop your advance.

The general tone in your post is not really inviting for constructive feedback either.

[HARRYY]

here is the replay.
I had map control etc. 0 power spent etc.

BC - wasted. np. PM+BL. eat it!

I admit I checked the cloud too late. still... his ECO watch it. izy-pizy T3 was incoming also

[BbBoS]

From watching the replay

- There were a lot of opportunities where you could have grouped up and pushed again his power
- Power sword in tier 1 for LC is such a good upgrade and scales well into tier 2 / 3 with stubbornness, it's such a cheap upgrade and provides so much against both Chaos and SM

Come tier 2:

- You bought the stubbornness upgrade but waited so long before you got any weapon upgrade, honestly, power sword earlier would of make a lot of difference for its price
- You panicked hard when the cloud showed itself, you need to split your guardsmen up rather than retreating through a cloud that deals melee_heavy damage
- Instead of a bunker, and instead of a melta kit for your storm troopers I think that you would have been better going for a HWT autocannon and AKST stormtroopers. Autocannon does well vs everything and AKST would be good at picking of heretic models and have good damage against Plague marines and bloodletters

[Helios]

How experienced are you at this game (how many hours)? On an equal-skill basis, the PC vs LC does tend to favour the PC, but not to the extent that you claim. The PC and the Chaos roster in general have lots of low-effort ways to punish the high-model/low-hp nature of the IG roster, but as someone who has beaten PCs who I would say are roughly in my skill bracket, I think you exaggerating the extent of the problem. As you become more experienced with LC you will find ways to work around all the cheap chaos tactics.

So what ARE the ways exactly?

And as far as the replay is concerned, honestly OP, you lost an EASY match. I wish I had opponents that completely absconded from making noise marines or havocs like this one did. It was your game to take in T1 if you had just built one squad of catas instead of a 3rd GM squad and gen bashed him. You didn't even have to worry about what he already had on the field. One CSM and one PC isn't enough to bring down a sentinel or catas quickly enough before you go in for a stomp or get off an ol' reliable. one Inspired Ol reliable and that would be 1/2 - 2/3 of the nade tics health. stomp can be saved for the melee tics (that might I add didn't even have AC) or for the csm if they tried to force melee. Everyone is telling you Power Sword but this game you wouldn't even need it. This all sounds like hindsight but if you're not getting some T1.5 unit for the utility alone they bring (Movement slow from HWT, knockback from either catas or spotters) you're either going to get pushed and gen bashed yourself, or you'll never pull one off like in this game.

Maybe you thought HE would get tier 1.5 units and you'd out tech him and win with a chimeara but honestly, transports are overrated IMO and one havoc squad and he can get a lascannon to counter anyway. You were better off denying power considering how little he had in t1. People forget that a match in this game can potentially go on forever. But no matter how long a match goes, you're never going to get back the time that you could have been gathering power but didn't from losing your generators and likewise for your opponent. At best, you equalize it with a counter bash and total power collected over the course of the match will be the same.

Lastly, you made purchases that were wasted. the flamer on your third GM i don't think ever once got off a successful bash (and as I said that squad was dubious a purchase to begin with) a bunker that saw almost no use and you spent so many resources on with both booby traps and medical upgrade to boot. Stubbornness when your Commissar was mostly tying up squads and capping here and there and not really doing a lot of damage or needing to stay alive...

[HARRYY]

the 3rd GM was for map control and it payed off a bit. OFC I missed some things along, but thats enough of a reason to lose like this?
Imagine I couldnt split from the cloud because he used it better (when his army also around and I can only retreat, if you see it this way he also missed things and could call out he deserved to lose because this 1 mistake).
the 30 power for catas would lead to BC raping me, but maybe I over-estimate the BC. maybe autocannon could been enough to hush him away. but killing him his necessity, so I made the job done with the melta storms.

thnkx for reviews so far I made some notes thannks

[Nurland]

I think the Cats or maybe some extra expenditure on LC (since you had the flamer GM) would have most likely secured you a full bash and a strong T1 lead.

That being said I think PC or Chaos in general is usually pretty tough to deal with as LC/LG.

[BloatedChamp]

Im my experiences, LC does well vs PC.

Your sentinel is your saving grace in t1. PC cannot deal with sents effectively. When they are constantly being repaired, bleeding heretics and decapping points. A well played Sent is frustrating for a PC player with his low mobility.

Your LC should be harassing the CSM when possible. You substantially decrease the dmg output of a chaos PC army, by doing this one thing. Then with the rest of your army you pick off the heretics and force off the low HP PC champion.

The thing is, you have to know what the PC excels at, and be prepared exploit it. All this takes time to learn. I personally have a hard time facing off against good IG players. Players that know how to avoid a noxious cloud, tie up my csm, focus my heretics etc.

[Oddnerd]

I found that being aggressive was the best way to win. If you allow your army to be idle, that is time the PC gets to entrench and setup up his damage sponge army behind cover.

Getting that early sentinel out to harass the cultists, getting catachans or spotters for the havocs, getting the sword on the commi... all excellent ways to not allow the PC time to get his perfect battle line set up.

[HARRYY]

I also find it hard to deal with the PC's worship later on (not T1) when hes fortified on a mid-VP for example.. then there he gots PM, BLs, a shrine and 2 Tics around that do worship when needed.

is there any good unit Setup I can bring up??? what do you use to actually deal damage...
shrine+worship ... wow

[Takadekadaka]

If they're entrenched and have a shrine+worship out, you're probably not going to be able to force them off unless you either have a significantly stronger army (which if you do, they shouldn't have entrenched), or you outbleed your opponent - assuming you both don't make tactical errors.

If they either have no AV, or you manage to force it off in the opening moments of your engagement, consider using a chimera. Both IG and HI races are bleed-resistant for different reasons: IG is bleed resistant because even if you lose hundreds of guardsmen (1 guardsmen = roughly 3.7 rec with both leaders) it won't cost you a lot, and HI because they hardly ever die. If you were to lengthen the engagement (reinforcing off chimera, opp. is presumably reinforcing off shrine), I THINK you will find that the engagement is hardly sustainable for chaos if they start dropping heretics (12 per model), CSM (67 rec per model), or worse plague marines (80 rec, 5 power per model), etc - death is very expensive for HI races. He would eventually have to either drop the position or lose substantial resources. Just be careful of well placed clouds, blight grenades, etc - you will probably be able to out-reinforce nade heretics.

My guess is that the strategy to beat a fortified shrine position is an entirely situation-based, but I think you could gain the upper hand if you try to fight using attrition.

[Psycho]

IG is bleed resistant because even if you lose hundreds of guardsmen (1 guardsmen = roughly 3.7 rec with both leaders) it won't cost you a lot

With a reinforce cost of 18, and two leaders providing two more models for free, each guardsman in theory would cost just 6 requisition. Still, emphasis on 'in theory', because the reinforcement mechanic means you're already spending 18 requisition up-front for the first guardsman that dies, regardless of whether two more or none die. The situation you described would work if the chaos player has so much firepower that they kill at least 3 models faster than it takes to reinforce one in addition to the two free ones, otherwise you're wasting requisition.

As an example, if your try to out-bleed a chaos player with a chimera and GM squad, and the chaos player doesn't have the firepower to kill one guardsman faster than they're reinforced, you'd be paying 18 requisition for each guardsman that dies. As I said, the proper situation that such thing reaches its peak of cost-efficiency is when they can kill three or more guardsmen faster than it takes to reinforce one. I wouldn't see that as a good situation either since at that point half the squad that just now reinforced would be busy running to the actual squad from the chimera with 50% accuracy due to moving if they are shooting at all, not to mention you'd be giving away tons of red to the enemy.

Time ago I suggested each guardsman leader reducing reinforce cost rather than giving an unwieldy bonus model reinforcement, but I don't see it getting implemented, so I didn't bother after that. To sum up, the GM bleeding is always worse in practice than in theory, unless you're a micro god that can reinforce guardsmen manually and check every squad for models lost while keeping them alive and fighting in cover.

[Ace of Swords]

@sorcerer, it's called micro, any decent IG player manually reinforces...

[Phoenix]

No offense Ace, but I remember Toilailee saying he uses auto-reinforce for his GM in a co-cast on one of Rupee's videos.

[Helios]

With a reinforce cost of 18, and two leaders providing two more models for free, each guardsman in theory would cost just 6 requisition. Still, emphasis on 'in theory', because the reinforcement mechanic means you're already spending 18 requisition up-front for the first guardsman that dies, regardless of whether two more or none die. The situation you described would work if the chaos player has so much firepower that they kill at least 3 models faster than it takes to reinforce one in addition to the two free ones, otherwise you're wasting requisition.

Which will probably happen anyway, especially in a team game. And will you (or whoever else it is along with you) stop droning on about this? IG economy is already balanced around them reinforcing at 18 req which is the second cheapest reinforcement cost for a ranged base unit, not counting nade heretics which then puts them at third cheapest but you need power for those. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. At worst you miss out on what? 12 req? Maybe even just 6??

@sorcerer, it's called micro, any decent IG player manually reinforces...

Lol no. No one is going to repeatedly press their hotkey(s) for their GM and mash 'z' in the middle of a fight especially with Sentinels being such a micro intensive unit lest the terrible vehicle pathing and lack of retreat get it killed, combined with Inferno and Plasma weapons tearing it a new one.

[Ace of Swords]

Lol no. No one is going to repeatedly press their hotkey(s) for their GM and mash 'z' in the middle of a fight especially with Sentinels being such a micro intensive unit lest the terrible vehicle pathing and lack of retreat get it killed, combined with Inferno and Plasma weapons tearing it a new one.

Hence, I said decent

[Psycho]

And will you (or whoever else it is along with you) stop droning on about this?

Damn son chill, I already said in that post I stopped posting about it. I brought it up since I was just correcting on the guy thinking it was 3.7 requisition for the guardsmen and why.

[Helios]

Lol no. No one is going to repeatedly press their hotkey(s) for their GM and mash 'z' in the middle of a fight especially with Sentinels being such a micro intensive unit lest the terrible vehicle pathing and lack of retreat get it killed, combined with Inferno and Plasma weapons tearing it a new one.

Hence, I said decent

So why are you describing something decent IG players don't actually do? You do know April fool's was 4 days ago?

[karnakkardak]

He is ROK old gamer who im knew. becasue of DPPK, korean must be conscripted for 2 years. and back.
like him, some guys retern to elite mod as my information.

[Impregnable]

He is ROK old gamer who im knew. becasue of DPPK, korean must be conscripted for 2 years. and back.
like him, some guys retern to elite mod as my information.

Just curious about it. Who are you referring to? You mean [DoJ]Huaaaaaaa right?