Nids vs IG
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Nids vs IG
I've heard from some people that IG have a tough time vs Nids and it's just against all my experience playing as Hive Tyrant in team games. T1 I find it almost impossible to push against a decent Guard player with a Sentinel and 2 GM. Multilaser turret prevents a push from most avenues. Tyrant gets focused down while hormas and termas try to force off the GM but they usually end up getting forced off themselves with the Tyrant gone and the IG commander and Sentinel disrupting.
Strangler Warriors can suppress the GM but that doesn't help against the Sentinel, so alternatively Ravs with Devourers to try and focus fire it, but that's 55 power for a unit that I generally find really poor especially vs IG later in the game.
T2 I find Nids get on equal footing with Zoanthropes, and T3 Fexes give Nids the advantage. But usually I'm at a tech advantage by then because I couldn't defend my power in T1.
So what do people do as Nids vs IG that works for them?
Strangler Warriors can suppress the GM but that doesn't help against the Sentinel, so alternatively Ravs with Devourers to try and focus fire it, but that's 55 power for a unit that I generally find really poor especially vs IG later in the game.
T2 I find Nids get on equal footing with Zoanthropes, and T3 Fexes give Nids the advantage. But usually I'm at a tech advantage by then because I couldn't defend my power in T1.
So what do people do as Nids vs IG that works for them?
Re: Nids vs IG
3x Termagants, all upgraded fully + BSWB and warp field + improved synapse no the HT. Warp field often is best bought while teching T2 so as to not delay. You can just brute force your way through and use brood nests to hold ground due to not only their reinforcement but their high regen too.
Come T2 you get a venom cannon on the HT and a venom brood for the ranged synapse then you get 2 zoans. All the IG can do is tech to tanks at which point you get a TB fex. They can try to get AV but all their non-tank AV is pretty useless vs the TB fex when you have a VC HT + 2 zoans and 3 terms under synapse as it just dies instantly. The 2 zoan snares make it very easy to kill tanks by letting the TB fex/VC HT/venom brood catch up and the TB fex always gives you LoS courtesy of it being a melee unit and therefore being very far forward.
Early las-turret spams, especially if they upgrade them, alongside sentinels can be tough though since nids lack a flamer or grenades. You can only charge onwards and just force the IG to retreat and get behind the turret. That is of course risky. I think most of the time if they go heavy on sents/turrets you should really demand a double from your ally. When she doubles you and ou kill the turrets the IG is doomed because those sents are going to die very fast in T2 so their army really doesn't scale anything like yours.
Come T2 you get a venom cannon on the HT and a venom brood for the ranged synapse then you get 2 zoans. All the IG can do is tech to tanks at which point you get a TB fex. They can try to get AV but all their non-tank AV is pretty useless vs the TB fex when you have a VC HT + 2 zoans and 3 terms under synapse as it just dies instantly. The 2 zoan snares make it very easy to kill tanks by letting the TB fex/VC HT/venom brood catch up and the TB fex always gives you LoS courtesy of it being a melee unit and therefore being very far forward.
Early las-turret spams, especially if they upgrade them, alongside sentinels can be tough though since nids lack a flamer or grenades. You can only charge onwards and just force the IG to retreat and get behind the turret. That is of course risky. I think most of the time if they go heavy on sents/turrets you should really demand a double from your ally. When she doubles you and ou kill the turrets the IG is doomed because those sents are going to die very fast in T2 so their army really doesn't scale anything like yours.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Nids vs IG
Well, if the player know how to play, doesn't matter what faction he or she is using, he can always handle you. But yeah, it is easyer to handle with IG, you are right.
If IG is annoying, you should become annoying too, right? But some Zoans and tear them apart with its huge brain. Or, but a Tyrant Guard and charge through them. But Zoans looks like a better idea. Much harder to outshoot for IG.
I useally use Orks vs IG becouse it is so much fun too drown the poor IG with endless dakka. Or to bomb them out of nowhere. Yeeaah it fells good.
If IG is annoying, you should become annoying too, right? But some Zoans and tear them apart with its huge brain. Or, but a Tyrant Guard and charge through them. But Zoans looks like a better idea. Much harder to outshoot for IG.
I useally use Orks vs IG becouse it is so much fun too drown the poor IG with endless dakka. Or to bomb them out of nowhere. Yeeaah it fells good.
Re: Nids vs IG
I think Nids are broken to the point they are favoured vs all races, but I believe IG actually has one of the best chances against them.
Re: Nids vs IG
Cheah18 wrote:I think Nids are broken to the point they are favoured vs all races, but I believe IG actually has one of the best chances against them.
I don't. I think they're pretty horrible vs them actually. Sentinels are practically useless. Zoans break the entire MU. Barbed stranglers be them on warriors or carnifexes are far too economicalyl efficient.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Nids vs IG
I see double raveners used against IG. The disruption plus the close combat, tie up guards men and allow for hormas to close in.
If you can sneak your spore mines in there too, it can be very painful to the IG player.
You just have to get creative with your playstyle. Get Bioplasma on your Hive tyrant to disrupt. Or get the "charge" wargear.
If you can sneak your spore mines in there too, it can be very painful to the IG player.
You just have to get creative with your playstyle. Get Bioplasma on your Hive tyrant to disrupt. Or get the "charge" wargear.
Re: Nids vs IG
Sorry to say that but you guys, especially hiveminion, have completely forgotten about numbers/costs
What hiveminion says about the early (first) engagement ist just wrong and cannot happen this way cause of ig's power cost!
1. IF the ig decides to place a lascannon turret, he will use 5 power for it and will be unable to even upgrade the sentinel stomp before the first engagement ist already over. Even if the IG doesn't build a turret, he will still lose the first engagement cause of the missing sentinel stomp.
2. at this time in the game ig has something like ~60 range dps in total - how THE FUCK will the focus down the HT AND hormas before they close in? It's just impossible that this has ever happened.
The usual first encounter of IG and Nids looks like this: IG desperately focuses hormas or the HT, not both! Hormas and HT get into melee and IG has to retreat their GM immediately cause of the horma-leap, which is just ridiculous. This is at the same time when the sentinel gets focused by double thermas and has no repair-support left and hormas attack the sentinel, too. The leap of hormas will cause the sentinel to stuck (it happens SO often...). Unable to move and stomp (you can't upgrade it cause of the needed 15 power) your sentinels gets destroyed.
What hiveminion says about the early (first) engagement ist just wrong and cannot happen this way cause of ig's power cost!
1. IF the ig decides to place a lascannon turret, he will use 5 power for it and will be unable to even upgrade the sentinel stomp before the first engagement ist already over. Even if the IG doesn't build a turret, he will still lose the first engagement cause of the missing sentinel stomp.
2. at this time in the game ig has something like ~60 range dps in total - how THE FUCK will the focus down the HT AND hormas before they close in? It's just impossible that this has ever happened.
The usual first encounter of IG and Nids looks like this: IG desperately focuses hormas or the HT, not both! Hormas and HT get into melee and IG has to retreat their GM immediately cause of the horma-leap, which is just ridiculous. This is at the same time when the sentinel gets focused by double thermas and has no repair-support left and hormas attack the sentinel, too. The leap of hormas will cause the sentinel to stuck (it happens SO often...). Unable to move and stomp (you can't upgrade it cause of the needed 15 power) your sentinels gets destroyed.
Re: Nids vs IG
If your sent is getting caught by hormas ... you're doing it wrong.
Re: Nids vs IG
Dark Riku wrote:If your sent is getting caught by hormas ... you're doing it wrong.
what i wrote was the worst case scenario
what i just wanted to point out is:
1. it is impossible to have both a turret and sentinel stomp upgrade in the first engagement, cause you just don't have the energy.
2. if anything collides with your sentinels feet, you are just unable to move your sentinel. (for example stomped hormas that get stomped around you and then jump at your feet). this alone makes me think twice about using the stomp vs hormas and their jump-attacks. kiting is nice but usually the sentinels accuracy on the move is quite bad and doesn't do much damage. another point is losing ground while moving back. so even if you survive, you'll maybe lose vp's or a farm
Re: Nids vs IG
1. That is actually map and MU dependant.
2. Your sent will only get stuck that way if there are a lot of models. That also requires your sent to be caught first, something that shouldn't be possible with good micro. Even if it gets swarmed, you can still use the stomp to knock back the units and get out.
Units can't cap and chase you at the same time.
2. Your sent will only get stuck that way if there are a lot of models. That also requires your sent to be caught first, something that shouldn't be possible with good micro. Even if it gets swarmed, you can still use the stomp to knock back the units and get out.
Units can't cap and chase you at the same time.
Re: Nids vs IG
Dark Riku wrote:1. That is actually map and MU dependant.
2. Your sent will only get stuck that way if there are a lot of models. That also requires your sent to be caught first, something that shouldn't be possible with good micro. Even if it gets swarmed, you can still use the stomp to knock back the units and get out.
Units can't cap and chase you at the same time.
1. I agree about the Map-part - but our MU is still IG vs Nid and in IG vs Nid the matchup is IG vs Nid
2. It does not depend on the number of models. For example the Hive Tyrant, Brother Captain and Chaos Lord can easily go for "click, click, click, click" on the feet of your sentinel and the sentinel will be unable to move. This should not happen if the IG player is careful but sometimes it happens - and some people know and abuse that.
Re: Nids vs IG
1. My point stil stands.
2. Everyone knows that. I was replying to your example.
You are still faster than those heroes ...
2. Everyone knows that. I was replying to your example.
You are still faster than those heroes ...
Re: Nids vs IG
Subject: Nids vs IG
Yes, going with termagaunts currently seems like the only way to survive against I.G. in T1.
I'm usually biased towards melee builds, however, and other players have pointed out that may be why I have so much trouble in this 1v1 matchup. Does anyone have any ideas on if and how it would be possible to defeat I.G. with a melee army?
If the opponent builds a sentinel, then he has sunk 350 req into a squad that cannot cap. Possibly hormagaunts + hero L.A. can aggressively seek & destroy the guardsman squad(s) + hero, preventing the I.G. opponent from capping.
Torpid wrote:3x Termagants, all upgraded fully + BSWB and warp field + improved synapse no the HT. Warp field often is best bought while teching T2 so as to not delay. You can just brute force your way through and use brood nests to hold ground due to not only their reinforcement but their high regen too.
Yes, going with termagaunts currently seems like the only way to survive against I.G. in T1.
I'm usually biased towards melee builds, however, and other players have pointed out that may be why I have so much trouble in this 1v1 matchup. Does anyone have any ideas on if and how it would be possible to defeat I.G. with a melee army?
If the opponent builds a sentinel, then he has sunk 350 req into a squad that cannot cap. Possibly hormagaunts + hero L.A. can aggressively seek & destroy the guardsman squad(s) + hero, preventing the I.G. opponent from capping.
Re: Nids vs IG
Can confirm maximum shootiness HT can completely destroy IG. It's just not fair
Last edited by Atlas on Tue 03 Mar, 2015 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Nids vs IG
Atlas wrote:Can confirm maximum shootiness HT can completely destroy HT. It's just not fair
I wouldn't want to miss out on the wisdom of this statement. Can anyone please decipher/translate?
Re: Nids vs IG
realself wrote:Atlas wrote:Can confirm maximum shootiness HT can completely destroy HT. It's just not fair
I wouldn't want to miss out on the wisdom of this statement. Can anyone please decipher/translate?
He meant "Can confirm maximum shootiness HT can completely destroy IG. It's just not fair "
To answer your question regarding how best to use melee with IG... Well, it's like asking how best to kill a vehicle with no AV. You're just making life difficult for yourself. Why bother? There's nothing that hormagaunts do really vs IG that termagants are inferior at bar killing lone guardsmen, but they will rarely be alone and hormagaunts are terrible vs everything else in the IG t1 and will bleed you horrendously come T2.
The best way to use your initial hormagaunt squad is to use it as your capper since it can easily solo guardsmen, or even the lord general to an extent (if he gets few specials) and it speed 6.5. Other than that the only other time you want a melee squad would be genestealers which are used to counter-initiate vs ogryns who the IG may get to deal with your piercing ranged damage blob and/or zoanthropes.
If you get warriors you make them ranged via the barbed strangler, same applies to the carnifex 90% of the time you fight IG, unless you want a VC fex to deal with leman russes. If you get ravener's you want to upgrade them to their devourers ASAP. Melee is should not wise vs IG, especially tyranid melee.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Nids vs IG
Yeah sorry I meant IG for the second part. Edited.
Your starting horms are a perfect capping unit as Torpid has already said. Really, you got a lot going for you imo as Tyranids and it's not easy to screw up.
Your starting horms are a perfect capping unit as Torpid has already said. Really, you got a lot going for you imo as Tyranids and it's not easy to screw up.
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