Farseer Wargear Singing Spear

[Deflaktor]

The farseer has a set of very good Wargear. However I have issues with the singing spear:

It costs too much for what it brings on the table. I never use it because the farseer is quite squishy and gets focused down easily. It has no ability and costs a hefty 130/40. The damage output is also nothing special. And now that walkers have melee resistance it became even less an av option. Since then it has never been touched so I think it is time for a revamp.

My suggestion:
add suppression immunity as an asset.
I think that would open the path for a dedicated melee farseer and add some variety to the playstyle of the farseer. Also it opens another way to deal with setup teams in t2.
Instead of suppression immunity it could also be weapon knockback immunity.

What do you guys think?

[Atlas]

77 heavy melee dps on a hero that can potentially move at speed 8.5 and (with Guide) an effective dps of 69.3 heavy melee dps at that speed? Yeah, I think the singing spear does fine. Christ, she can outrun a razorback

Yeah, I think the wargear is fine as is. I might even say that it's undervalued.

[saltychipmunk]

well most standard melee heavy offerings on commanders have a power cost usually in the 50s (see all powerfists , power claw, crushing claws etc).
and they do only about 10 - 15 more dps than the fs singing blade.

In addition to what atlas said we should also consider that the farseer is not a combat commander, but rather a support unit . This is by design so it makes perfect sense that her gear be slightly weaker in terms of stats when compared to other wargear as a trade off for being a support commander with all those tasty active abilities

But i think mostly it is as Atlas said.. she can buff herself.

[Asmon]

Whatever, there is no situation that justifies you to buy the spear, but the one when your opponent has only vehicles on the field, and even then you're almost as good without any weapon since vehicles cannot capture.

[Deflaktor]

I feel the Gravity Blade is a much better choice in almost any case and also has quite a high dps (76.92 vs 65) for a less price. As an AV option the Singing Spear can be used to scare off light vehicles at most. I will try a few more games with it and post some results. However, I am not convinced.

EDIT:

she can buff herself.

If she buffs herself, she is not supporting anymore. That is something I do in rare cases only and only in T1. Also using Guide and FoF together is not a good idea. You waste your Guide on 40% melee reduced DPS. Guide has a lot of better uses than wasting it on the Farseer in general.

[saltychipmunk]

but she *can* buffer her self so you need to balance her gear with the possibility in mind.

[egewithin]

Cool strategy I think. Kill models with Spears much easy, level up faster. If you can deal with any kind of set up team, will be pretty effective with your Banshees since you have your melee Eldar army.

[Dark Riku]

Can everyone please stop bringing up melee resistant walkers? They are supposed to be melee superiority units!
There are plenty of vehicles without melee resistance and other squads where heavy melee weapons are great against.

The spear already got a damage buff. It's a great vehicle deterrent combined with her (or Eldar) trickery.
Like infiltrated units thanks to her gates or rangers, run in a time fielded area, Warp spiders, etc.

[Black Relic]

Time field and then have your farseer with this weapon run in to take out a vehicle. I'd use singing spear also vs jump troops. Throw guide on yourself as you babysit a set up team and wreck faces.

The only problem i have with eldar atm (since fire dragons are getting needed changes) rangers atm since i am finally starting to notice PC huge vulnerability vs them. It's awful.

[saltychipmunk]

lol all you need is time field.. period.

[Lichtbringer]

Can everyone please stop bringing up melee resistant walkers? They are supposed to be melee superiority units!
There are plenty of vehicles without melee resistance and other squads where heavy melee weapons are great against.

The spear already got a damage buff. It's a great vehicle deterrent combined with her (or Eldar) trickery.
Like infiltrated units thanks to her gates or rangers, run in a time fielded area, Warp spiders, etc.

(May I ask when that buff was, and what it buffed? I couldn't find it. Sorry)

I agree that Meleewalkers should be meleesuperiority units.
This doesn't change the fact one bit though that the niche for the Singing spear got even smaller.
Might I add that many tanks recently even got a speed buff?


Even the Doombringer competes heavily with its AV purpose. Atleast I don't have to get quite in melee with it.
And the protection the Gravityblades offer my AV setupteams is invaluable.


Yes, I too can come up with Situations were it will be usefull, but I have to ask myself... would something else not do the job better/cheaper? (To me it just never seems like a good situation/time to buy it).
I don't think I am quite qualified to answer that though, so I ask you: Do you actually in reality find yourself or others go for the Singing Spear?
Something not being used isn't a definite proof that its underpowered. It could just be underappreciated, or it could just have only a niche use.

Thats why I would suggest buffing its range of applications, instead of what its already good at, if we wanted to try to buff it. And if its suddenly to strong and everyone uses it, I will happily admit that you were right and we have to change it back.


Another productive Idea would be to think about the things the Singing Spear does good at the moment. Then people who underappreciate it can see its light, and if we were to buff its range of applications we can avoid these areas:

-When you use the Farseer as a lone wolf, probably in combination with the Armor of Fortune.
-When you use the Farseer to kill Transports that are trying to gain map control by spreading out.
-When you combine it with timefield to smack something.
-You could maybe kite a meleewalker in combination with Firedragons?
-With armour of Fortune and the SingingSpear the FS can solo a Bloodcrusher (I think) (though it can escape easily).

[linkthestink]

So my opinion, (because that's what it is based on my experiences.) Is that the singing spear is for use when the farseer is going to be running around solo a lot capping things and harassing lone units and such. With the singing spear I can't think of a t2 unit or below that she can't beat/wound horrendously.

The other two weapon options are about a million times better when there are other friendly units near you. Singing spear is kind of like a buy it and forget item that lets your farseer actually super scary solo. Also she's pretty mean when beating up commanders with the spear.

While I'm no expert. I don't think there's anything wrong with the singing spear where it's at.

[Tex]

I have 3 cents to add to this.

The singing spear is a melee_heavy wargear. This is by default the best type of melee damage you can have because you can damage all armor types effectively. This damage type is always accompanied by a high power cost. It is an established and logical train of thought for wargear pricing in this game.

The singing spear is a great weapon if you want to focus on using your energy elsewhere. I often get it when I'm more interested in using fortune, guide, and mindwar. I tend to use fortune on my DA's to soak up ranged fire, I guide a platform for maximum damage output, and I finish chasing a unit with fleet of foot or mindwar.

I have a build order with the FS where I go 3x DA's, 3x shurikans, Warpspiders, and singing spear. Having the ability to snipe transports with my FS and spiders is awesome. I can also heavily damage a walker and force it to choose which threat to address.

[Atlas]

...
I have a build order with the FS where I go 3x DA's, 3x shurikans, Warpspiders, and singing spear. Having the ability to snipe transports with my FS and spiders is awesome. I can also heavily damage a walker and force it to choose which threat to address.

Tell me more about this build. This intrigues me greatly because I'm pretty sure that's not a 6 unit T1.

[Tex]

It is actually. Then you tech strait into warp spiders, and add brightlances as/if required. You'd be surprised at how much damage you can put out to infantry with 3x brightlances with scorch beam turned on. No upgrades on DA's until required.

[Laplace's Demon]

The farseer has a set of very good Wargear. However I have issues with the singing spear:

It costs too much for what it brings on the table. I never use it because the farseer is quite squishy and gets focused down easily. It has no ability and costs a hefty 130/40. The damage output is also nothing special. And now that walkers have melee resistance it became even less an av option. Since then it has never been touched so I think it is time for a revamp.

My suggestion:
add suppression immunity as an asset.
I think that would open the path for a dedicated melee farseer and add some variety to the playstyle of the farseer. Also it opens another way to deal with setup teams in t2.
Instead of suppression immunity it could also be weapon knockback immunity.

What do you guys think?

The spear is likely over costed for what it brings. It costs more power than the thunder hammer for one thing, and marginally less req which, for a power dependent faction like eldar, is very steep. Especially when the spear does 2/3rds of the damage done by the hammer. Yes the hammer has lower DPS, but damage done in bursts is very strong in this game for a few reasons anyway.The point that it damages all targets doesn't hold up in my view since the farseer doesn't want to go up against targets that regular power melee sufferes against. She is very weak, hurting her ability to make real use of the damage type.

[Crewfinity]

disagree.

Warboss: 150/50, 95 heavy melee dps
Lord Commissar: 150/50, 85 heavy melee dps
Plague Champion: 150/50, 72.5 heavy melee dps
Force Commander: 200/50, 85 heavy melee dps
Hive Tyrant: 150/50, 108 heavy melee dps
Warp Spider Exarch: 130/30, 53.57 heavy melee dps
Farseer: 130/40, 77 heavy melee dps

its actually on the cheaper end of heavy melee weapons, considering the dps. when you consider that you can guide yourself up to 100 heavy melee dps, its an awesome light vehicle counter. sure farseer is a bit fragile, but fortune solves those issues.

you're comparing it to the thunder hammer, which is a bad comparison to make since the thunder hammer is pretty much a hard blob/infantry counter and doesnt have the heavy melee damage type, which typically has a large buy-in cost, much like the other premium damage types(plasma, melta).

by using her webway gates you can use her to flank setup teams or ambush vehicles, with this weapon the farseer can also act as a jump unit counter, since you'll be putting out a bunch of damage. lots of other people touched on why its good, i agree with all of them. awesome weapon, farseer really isnt as fragile as she seems when used well.

[Laplace's Demon]

disagree.

Warboss: 150/50, 95 heavy melee dps
Lord Commissar: 150/50, 85 heavy melee dps
Plague Champion: 150/50, 72.5 heavy melee dps
Force Commander: 200/50, 85 heavy melee dps
Hive Tyrant: 150/50, 108 heavy melee dps
Warp Spider Exarch: 130/30, 53.57 heavy melee dps
Farseer: 130/40, 77 heavy melee dps

its actually on the cheaper end of heavy melee weapons, considering the dps. when you consider that you can guide yourself up to 100 heavy melee dps, its an awesome light vehicle counter. sure farseer is a bit fragile, but fortune solves those issues.

you're comparing it to the thunder hammer, which is a bad comparison to make since the thunder hammer is pretty much a hard blob/infantry counter and doesnt have the heavy melee damage type, which typically has a large buy-in cost, much like the other premium damage types(plasma, melta).

by using her webway gates you can use her to flank setup teams or ambush vehicles, with this weapon the farseer can also act as a jump unit counter, since you'll be putting out a bunch of damage. lots of other people touched on why its good, i agree with all of them. awesome weapon, farseer really isnt as fragile as she seems when used well.

All good points, but its important to keep context in mind. I don't think anyone would argue the farseer is built to be a front line commander. heros that are built for melee benefit more from heavy melee damage as a type, because they have the resilience to use it against targets that other damage types do poorly against. Why bother getting heavy damage type weapons when the platform can't use it against targets it is intended to counter more than other types? I'm not saying its useless. Everything has its uses. But given the low frequency of its use, the other strengths of the FS etc, it seems fair to say there is a reason it sees less play.

[Crewfinity]

yeah, due to her nature as a more support commander there are usually better options. however, having this wargear allows for the option of soft-countering fast vehicles with your commander, which is a big deal. you may not need it often, but its good that it exists. I dont think its a problem that it's a niche wargear simply because of the hero design, and i think its very well priced for what it gives. buffing it is unnecessary imo.

TLDR the reason it doesnt see as much play as the other weapons is due to the design of the hero, not because the singing spear is underpowered.

[Tex]

If you want to buff it, give it increased range attack strength or w/e.

Its perfectly fine when you consider all the ways the farseer can change the battle around this wargear. I know that's a dicey argument to get into, but its also along the same lines as why the brother captain finally had his teleporter pack removed.

A few examples:
adding guide gives her ~100dps heavy_melee damage
comboing with time field allows the FS to attack vehicles caught inside without the threat of retaliation
fleet of foot allows for superior chase downs, add guide to mitigate the damage loss
timed combo of doombringer --->cast doom last second---> singing spear + guide = wtf pwn damage (yes I know its an expensive and taxing combo)
fortune + runes = great sustain against walkers

Anyway, I know its all expensive and fancy, but that's exactly the point of heroes like the farseer and chaos sorcerer. They have an extremely high skill ceiling. The reward is there if you are willing to micro and plan for it.

[saltychipmunk]

If nothing else it is useful if you already have a bunch of abilities on her that you spam. between guide and possibly 2 other active abilities( with numerous applications ) having a single melee heavy source (even if it is not competitive with other melee heavy commander weapons without help) at the cost of an ability can be helpful.

[Deflaktor]

Ok, forget what I was saying before. What this wargear needs most right now is a good special attack. She cannot even hold her own against melee units with this wargear. Her special attack is the default one which is just too weak with such a costly wargear.

I see your strategy tips on how to use it and I have seriously been trying to make it work but I still think it is just lackluster. The combo with timefield sounds good but such a situation is just way too rare to be seriously considered.

To be fair Im speaking from a 3v3 standpoint. Im not sure how good it is in 1v1.

[linkthestink]

I can get on board with a new special. Almost every weapon get a new special (usually) when they get a wargear. I'm not sure what it would be, but I like your thinking.

[Shas'la]

The Farseer's special attack animations are already pretty damn good (plus changing animations or making new ones is a bunch of work).

I haven't been able to find the amount of damage it does anywhere, though. If it's the same as her default weapon, then I guess that could use a bit of an increase?

[Crewfinity]

from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1261


Farseer Default Witchblade: --------------------------------------- Farseer Gravity Blade:
Radius: 0 - 6 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Radius: 0 - 6
Angle: -90 > 90 --------------------------------------------------------------- Angle: -90 > 90
Effect: Knockback ------------------------------------------------------------ Effect: Knockback
Knockback: Weapon ---------------------------------------------------------- Knockback: Weapon
Flight Distance: 8 ------------------------------------------------------------- Flight Distance: 8
Damage: 25 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Damage: 46
Damage Type: melee_pvp --------------------------------------------------- Damage Type: melee_pvp
Duration: 1 seconds ---------------------------------------------------------- Duration: 2 seconds
Effect Duration: 0.3 ----------------------------------------------------------Effect Duration: 0.3
Delay: 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Delay: 1
Chance: 0.3 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Chance: 1
Sweep Type: right to left ---------------------------------------------------- Sweep Type: right to left
Targets: Enemy ---------------------------------------------------------------- Targets: Enemy

Farseer Doombringer: ---------------------------------------------- Farseer Singing Spear:
Radius: 0 - 6 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Radius: 0 - 6
Angle: -90 > 90 --------------------------------------------------------------- Angle: -90 > 90
Effect: Knockback ----------------------------------------------------------- Effect: Knockback
Knockback: Weapon --------------------------------------------------------- Knockback: Weapon
Flight Distance: 8 ------------------------------------------------------------ Flight Distance: 8
Damage: 55 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Damage: 65
Damage Type: melee_pvp -------------------------------------------------- Damage Type: melee_heavy
Duration: 2 seconds ---------------------------------------------------------- Duration: 2 seconds
Effect Duration: 0.3 ----------------------------------------------------------Effect Duration: 0.3
Delay: 0.9 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Delay: 0.9
Chance: 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Chance: 1
Sweep Type: right to left --------------------------------------------------- Sweep Type: none
Targets: Enemy -------------------------------------------------------------- Targets: Enemy



it may be the same special attack, but it does more than twice as much damage, and it deals heavy melee damage instead of regular melee

[Shas'la]

Nice! That seems fine, then, considering the animations.

I do wonder if the difference in sweep type has any effect on gameplay. I've never noticed it dealing knockback in a different order than the witchblade specials.

from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1261

Farseer Default Witchblade: --------------------------------------- Farseer Gravity Blade:
Sweep Type: right to left ---------------------------------------------------- Sweep Type: right to left

Farseer Doombringer: ---------------------------------------------- Farseer Singing Spear:
Sweep Type: right to left --------------------------------------------------- Sweep Type: none

[Wise Windu]

Well, the duration of the Witchblade damage sweep is only 1 second, so it probably isn't easy to spot, and probably doesn't really make a difference.

[Tex]

Ok here, make the special attack 360. That's a huge buff in and of itself.

Doesn't change the performance vs vehicles, but it makes her a much more effective brawler.